Fs700 color banding and highlight aliasing

J

Joosbox

New member
I have been noticing these issues since day 1 with the camera (which is only 32 days ago).
I know it has been brought up a many times on the forum, but I wanted to share my results with you guys and show how unacceptable these issues are. One thing I noticed that seems to help (which is also buried deep on the forum) is to shoot in S-log2. Which is great that it slightly addresses the problem (color fringing only, not the aliasing/black pixel phenomenon) but adds a whole other slew of issues in the mix if you don't expose just right.

I seem to see the anomalies the most when shooting with my 11-16 Tokina. I spoke with my rep and was told it is most likely a lens issue. However I have never had these issues with this lens on any other camera (Epic, c300, 5Ds, BMCC)

I would like to know if you guy are seeing issues this bad on your side? Really look forward to hearing any input!

https://vimeo.com/95885774
password: fs700

cheers
 
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It's hard to tell what is Vimeo compression and what is the camera. If you are using the internal recording then it is only AVCHD at 25mbps and 8-bit 4:2:0. The camera with the Odyssey7Q will give you a far better result.
 
I noticed this from the beginning. I actually used it to find focus hahaha, that's sad! punch in 2x and then look for the aliasing/fringing and you've got focus!

I feel like after I got my fs700 updated from sony it got worse or maybe I just started noticing it right around that time.

The O7Q fixed all this, and it is amazing.
 
Mitch Gross said:
It's hard to tell what is Vimeo compression and what is the camera. If you are using the internal recording then it is only AVCHD at 25mbps and 8-bit 4:2:0. The camera with the Odyssey7Q will give you a far better result.
Click to expand...

It looks worse inside my NLE, vimeo actually made it slightly better haha. Yea everything is internal, I have demo'd the 7Q and youre right those issues arent present however I dont feel that a $4000 additonal expense is a legitimate "fix" for an already $7700.00 camera. My 6 year old 5DM2 that shoots 8-bit 420 doesnt have these issues.

I do agree the 7Q image is amazing but it has its issues too with the fs700.
 
Haha odd you would compare to a 5dmk2 which has much worse issues (strong aliasing, softness)

It does seem silly this camera has the black pixel issue on high contrast edges when it is otherwise so capable. If only Sony turn off whatever function is causing it, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
 
The Tokina isn't the greatest lens. Not surprising for it's price. It's got a problem with CA and is evident when used with Odyssey too, although lessened when shooting SLog. Not saying that colour fringing isn't problem with internal recording on FS but combo probably makes it worse.
 
Joosbox said:
I have been noticing these issues since day 1 with the camera (which is only 32 days ago).
I know it has been brought up a many times on the forum, but I wanted to share my results with you guys and show how unacceptable these issues are. One thing I noticed that seems to help (which is also buried deep on the forum) is to shoot in S-log2. Which is great that it slightly addresses the problem (color fringing only, not the aliasing/black pixel phenomenon) but adds a whole other slew of issues in the mix if you don't expose just right.

I seem to see the anomalies the most when shooting with my 11-16 Tokina. I spoke with my rep and was told it is most likely a lens issue. However I have never had these issues with this lens on any other camera (Epic, c300, 5Ds, BMCC)

I would like to know if you guy are seeing issues this bad on your side? Really look forward to hearing any input!

https://vimeo.com/95885774
password: fs700

cheers
Click to expand...

it's been talked about this issue since 2012, feel sorry you didn't catch this before buying. :(

even that "change.org" stuff happened long time ago but no one at Sony cares about it.

just go get either R5 or 7Q for better recording and you will be happy :)
 
sLOG2 in AVCHD is imho a profile only suitable in situations when everything else is worse. I have seen very nice sLOG AVCHD samples on vimeo but they were all in well lit sets and not used for compensation of difficult circumstances. Also with all due respect to Noah's work personally I did not like the nLOG profile too much as I ended up quickly in a lot of noise.

In general you have to consider that it's still 8bit 4:2:0, a standard from some years ago. We made a big jump since than, not only with the 7Q but also with a lot of progress from almost all manufacturers. We are used to high bit rates, 10bit ProRes, RAW files everywhere and we have become very demanding - but the technique of the FS700 ist still from 2011/2 and fringing is also a weak point of the FS700. It's not restricted to AVCHD, you see it also clearly in 7Q 4K2HD REC709.

I have to second sunnyjimfilm's rating of the Tokina 11-16. It's very popular but either I have a bad model or it's overrated. Mine is almost not usable at f5.6 or more open. In German we have a saying "it's lice and fleas" and it means you have two reasons which are responsible at the same time for one issue.
 
As well as the black pixels (which appears to be a function of how sony scale the 4K down to 1080p in camera, something that can be duplicated outside the camera - it's not a sensor artefact) you also have issues with colour solarisation and the way saturated reds are captured.

Reds and CMOS sensors were never the best of friends, not just on the Sony cameras but many others. LED lighting is very particular with it's colour output as well. It is amplified by the colour profiles being used too, even Slog2 to a lesser degree.

These are all well known 'issues' with the camera, in your video you happen to have shot some scenes that show it up very badly.

It is true that taking the RAW 4K will allow you to get around these issues (mostly - in terms of the red issue, but certainly much better than before). I'd disagree that the 4K2HD shows the *same* thing, it's generally a lot better on that front but does occasionally alias due to the way the image is being scaled, but it's pretty damn good overall 99% of the time.

The O7Q is really the other half of this camera. Sony ought to be bundling it...

The output of the 700 is pretty damned good, no it's not in F55 territory, maybe not F5 either (although only in extreme cases) but what it does offer for the price is without compare at the moment.

cheers
Paul
 
freiheit said:
it's been talked about this issue since 2012, feel sorry you didn't catch this before buying. :(

even that "change.org" stuff happened long time ago but no one at Sony cares about it.

just go get either R5 or 7Q for better recording and you will be happy :)
Click to expand...

The 7Q produces great results but it has its issues with the fs700, if you are using it as your ONLY monitor (not using the onboard screen) you won't be able to see what ISO, Shutter or aperture you're at.
The file sizes are HUGE if you want to do anything RAW/high FPS, its not an ideal solution.

Internally on AVCHD I can handle the color fringing to a certain degree but the highlight aliasing/black pixel issue is horrendous and unacceptable for a camera in this price range.
 
Joosbox said:
The 7Q produces great results but it has its issues with the fs700, if you are using it as your ONLY monitor (not using the onboard screen) you won't be able to see what ISO, Shutter or aperture you're at.
The file sizes are HUGE if you want to do anything RAW/high FPS, its not an ideal solution.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but you just keep the LCD up and look at both. It's easy. I actually prefer it this way as you have all your info on the small screen and the 7Q has an image that is free from all the info clutter. It's better this way, trust me. At first I thought it was weird too, but took me about 1 day to get used to it.

As for the files sizes, just shoot RAW, transcode then trashed the RAW after the project. That's what I do anyways. And like Paul says, the FS700 is only half the camera now.
 
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