FS700 - 120FPS 4K Raw

stefanhuberfilms said:
has there been any pricing info on the interface unit?
i saw that the recorder will need the big battery block on the back, is that a v-mount battery? does anyone know if the aux port (BNC) on the AXS-R5 Recorder is usable for monitoring?

EDIT:
HD output for monitoring
HDMI/Component/Composite video outputs on NEX-FS700 and the AUX OUT of the AXS-R5 can be used for monitoring purposes.
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The battery is the 'Olivine' type which has higher capacity. It is down as being V mount though, i i must assume the back of the AXS is vmount. Whether the power draw of the recorder requires 'Olivine' or not, i don't know. I would guess not.

However it's the cost of the media which gets me. A single card is very expensive. You'd probably need two. Plus i think you have to have the dock in order to read the data off (USB 3) unless you can connect to the recorder directly? I think the media costs alone would be the same price as the Odessey...

cheers
paul
 
yes, media cost seems insane here...

estimated amount of cost:
AXS-R5 Recorder $5350
AXS-CR1 Card Reader $550
AXS-512S24 Memory card (2x) $3600
AXR-IFR5 interface unit $2000 - pure speculation
FS700 firm or hardware upgrade $???

Total amount $11500 (minimum)

well thats way to much as an investment, but renting it would be ok around 200-300 bucks...
 
paulcurtis said:
The battery is the 'Olivine' type which has higher capacity. It is down as being V mount though, i i must assume the back of the AXS is vmount. Whether the power draw of the recorder requires 'Olivine' or not, i don't know. I would guess not.

However it's the cost of the media which gets me. A single card is very expensive. You'd probably need two. Plus i think you have to have the dock in order to read the data off (USB 3) unless you can connect to the recorder directly? I think the media costs alone would be the same price as the Odessey...

cheers
paul
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don't forget the codec cost on the odyssey... cinemaDNG and DPX files don't seem like edit friendly formats to me, XAVC seems better - does any NLE support it yet, except of FCPX?
 
stefanhuberfilms said:
don't forget the codec cost on the odyssey... cinemaDNG and DPX files don't seem like edit friendly formats to me, XAVC seems better - does any NLE support it yet, except of FCPX?
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I think you'd be typically editing with a proxy and conforming/grading the DPX files. That's how it's handled now. There are no good high colour depth containers for >10 bit image data, especially at 4K. Cineform would be closest but doesn't work very well with higher end tools that would typically be using these files.

XAVC is a higher end version of AVCHD, if that's good enough then use that, especially if you're just editing.

But then if you're just wanted XAVC then by the time you've added the Sony solution to the price of the 700 you may as well buy an F5 (doesn't that do 4K XAVC internally?)

cheers
paul
 
i just watched a video where ned soltz demonstrated the raw workflow with premiere pro: https://vimeo.com/59126545

thanks ned!

seems very easy, and similar to the red workflow, mercury playback engine seems to handle the files just fine at half res with an appropriate GPU. I wonder what a good workflow would be for PP and Speedgrade, since Speedgrade converts the Sony-RAW format to DPX, which i assume isn't giving us the full raw informations we want?
 
paulcurtis said:
But then if you're just wanted XAVC then by the time you've added the Sony solution to the price of the 700 you may as well buy an F5 (doesn't that do 4K XAVC internally?)

cheers
paul
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i believe F5 does not do it internally, only F55 .... correct me if i am wrong! Plus the price of the rest of the acceseries that u need for F5 to make it work .....will break the poket
 
anatusa said:
i believe F5 does not do it internally, only F55 .... correct me if i am wrong! Plus the price of the rest of the acceseries that u need for F5 to make it work .....will break the poket
Click to expand...

Right, F5 is essentially a 2k camera with a 4k sensor not unlike the FS700. There is no way to get 4k out of the F5 besides to sony's RAW recorder, and there is no 4k monitoring output. Frankly, I'm very glad to have an FS700 instead of an F5 that is twice the price since it sounds like the RAW capabilities of the FS700 will be quite similar, and HFR functions are/will be even better than the F5... I'm just amazed what an all-around camera this news makes the FS700.

vs F5, the FS700 is half the price, smaller, lighter, less than half the power consumption, has an onboard LCD, does 240fps, works with speedbooster, is ready for handheld operating with no accessories, compatibility with convergent 7Q...

vs FS700, the F5 has 2k 422 internally, slog2, RAW option now not in july, xavc, better RGB gamma and color...

The magnitude of the cost difference may rest upon whether Sony charge for the FS700 firmware update and if so how much.

It does seem like a big deal that F5/F55 might be stuck with sony $5k+ RAW recorder with the $2.2k 7Q coming out since it is less then half the price while also providing an OLED monitor and it appears the media at costs 1/4 as much per GB (according to initial reports, 960GB for $1k vs sony's 512GB for $1800). Particularly since Sony's R5 is ONLY a RAW recorder for the F5/F55/FS700 while the 7Q works for a wide array of 2k-4k camera systems and looks to be a great OLED field monitor as well...
 
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My bad about the F5 and 4k, i must have been thinking the F55.

I believe the 700 to be more flexible than the F5, so long as you own it and don't rent it out or hurl abuse at it. Having said that, the F5 claims 14 stops of range and i'd love to know how different the 700 sensor is and also whether the colour filter in the 700 is as good as the F5. Maybe one day someone can side by side.

As for DPX, it can contain all the data you need but it's not as efficient (in terms of space) as going back to the RAW. A better file based choice IMHO is OpenEXR, it's main format is a 16 bit float version which can easily handle the full range of any of these cameras (30+ stops with 1024 steps per stop and also more range beyond that but not as detailed). There's also a lossless wavelet based compression option too. The 16 bit float format is really optimised for processing and also happens to match the nvidia GPU data sizes too. Open EXR 2.0 has just been released too which can embed so much more information in files (mainly for vfx work though). I've done a lot of tests to find my preferred pipeline format - from cineform to cineon, dpx, prores, etc,. OpenEXR was the only format that really handled everything well.

I'd prefer the Odessey use OpenEXR than DPX.

cheers
paul
 
Though Sony was not clear about this, I think it seems likely that they meant DPX RAW when they said 2k is RAW DNG and 4k is DPX. A bigger issue is that DPX does not support compression that I know of (besides lossless RLE which is nearly useless) so that means if you want to record raw 4k you will be dealing with footage that is 400MBps and 960GB cards that only give you 40min of recording. Plan on having to offload and backup at least 2-3TB per day...

Part of the reason I think they mean RAW DPX not RGB DPX (both are possible, though RAW DPX isn't all that common) is that 12-bit 4K 30fps RGB DPX is 1200MBps, which is way beyond the maximum write speed of the 7Q. 1.2TBps is also ridiculous because even the fastest thunderbolt RAID wouldn't give you realtime playback and many productions would have to spend days offloading a couple minutes of footage.

I really hope they have compressed 4k RAW options. I have enough trouble offloading and backing up 40MBps 4k RED footage and am spoiled by my 3MBps FS700 AVCHD...

If uncompressed is the only option, I think people will start to really seriously think about whether they need 4k or just 2k and most will just use 2k, especially since it sounds like 2k may support compressed RAW DNG.
 
nyvz said:
Though Sony was not clear about this, I think it seems likely that they meant DPX RAW when they said 2k is RAW DNG and 4k is DPX. A bigger issue is that DPX does not support compression that I know of (besides lossless RLE which is nearly useless) so that means if you want to record raw 4k you will be dealing with footage that is 400MBps and 960GB cards that only give you 40min of recording. Plan on having to offload and backup at least 2-3TB per day...

Part of the reason I think they mean RAW DPX not RGB DPX (both are possible, though RAW DPX isn't all that common) is that 12-bit 4K 30fps RGB DPX is 1200MBps, which is way beyond the maximum write speed of the 7Q. 1.2TBps is also ridiculous because even the fastest thunderbolt RAID wouldn't give you realtime playback and many productions would have to spend days offloading a couple minutes of footage.

I really hope they have compressed 4k RAW options. I have enough trouble offloading and backing up 40MBps 4k RED footage and am spoiled by my 3MBps FS700 AVCHD...

If uncompressed is the only option, I think people will start to really seriously think about whether they need 4k or just 2k and most will just use 2k, especially since it sounds like 2k may support compressed RAW DNG.
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Good points. They do say some modes require both SSDs running. From the CD website they do imply that dpx is uncompressed. I think they would say 'raw dpx' (although i've never come across any raw dpx and don't know what supports it)

We'll just have to wait for Mike or someone from CD to put us out of our guessing games and tell us what it records.

The real oddity is why CinemaDNG for 2K but not for 4k? That's also why i think those dpx are uncompressed. I know cineform were experimenting wih DPX-C which was a cineform compressed version. But again, fairly unsupported.

It would be a shame to start with what is a compressed RAW and then have to archive bloated versions from the recorder. But if for some tech reason they cannot store RAW then my vote is stll for OpenEXR, perhaps even with the Piz compression.

cheers
paul
 
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