FS7: FS7 w/ SmallHD 502 - Problem in CineEI mode

Marketing videos exist that explain how the new F was designed using direct user feedback. Secret meetings in underground caverns and what not.

Really, those names should have been publicly disclosed. :)
 
FrameFarmMedia said:
This and spotting any odd colour casts is the reason I use luts even if broken. Slog2/3 I find so flat that you can't spot colour issues with mixed lighting till post and with such low contrast focus can be difficult by eye. I'm sure I'd get used to it eventually but for now the luts are working fine enough for me.
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The odd colour cast would be removed in post or by properly choosing a white balance setting. Focus can be handled by using peaking. Exposure can be handled by using Doug's Zebra 2 method.

As Alister indicated and has been said several times before, the slog's are designed with the expectation of a post workflow. If you don't want to deal with shooting slog then don't. Properly tuned, some of the Hypergammas are very good.

Having said that, I would agree mluts should either not be there or work better. And as I have said before, going cheap on processing power is inexcusable.

Y'all have some fun,
Robert
 
Odd color problems resulting from mixed lighting with flourescents and LED's are very difficult and sometimes impossible to fix in post. That's the problem with not using LUT's , you often just don't see those issues .
 
Im not sure why the OP wants to see changing CineEI values. CINEI is just in effect different LUTs,

Make three luts, push, normal and pull.. then you have the same thing.

--

Len

The 502 RGB histo (and a grey card in the scene) make for very good tool for evaluating the colour in the image.

S
 
Well sometimes you just don't want to work in a camera's native ISO, so I can see the need to change it. Making a few versions of LUTs isn't a bad idea either, but won't work good if you are trying to use a few different base LUTs, then all of the sudden you need 3-4 of each to carry around and the camera can only hold 4. But yeah, there are plenty of options and you suggestion would work too.
 
The LUT abilites of the camera are not really relevant. How many can the DP502 hold.. loads.

As for working at the native ISO , my suggestion is that in EI mode you dont want to go off by more than 1.5 stops in either direction.

So you need a dark, a normal and a bright LUT - simply made in DResove et al

You would use bright when you want to retain some highlights at the expense of shadow noise, and the opp for dark where you want clean shadows.

As suggested before.

For high Iso (or off scale lights G-M) I would suggest customEI and those ISO ramps do feed to the montor and you can click/dial WB, and as it is the monitor that is lutting the luts work in custom mode.

As soon as you have a monitor that supports luts the camera works perfectly.. apart from the LUT you chose is not in the meta data so your colourist does not know your start point/intention.

Interestingly the DP502 is supposed to be introducing a grab still (to SD card) which would enable passing reference shots of 'what you saw' to the colour team.

S
 
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I was referring to camera only, but sure with an external LUT box like the DP502 you can load as many as you want. Maybe a really fancy LUT box will let you do gain in 1 stop increments on top of a single base LUT too, but it's all bandaid solutions over a true underlying problem.

In a dark environment even with some lights, maybe you want to shoot 16,000 ISO - again you have no choice but to push it in post or use Custom mode.

Makes no sense why people should have to work this way to me.
 
This thread is FS7/502 monitor. Discuss the other setups elsewhere!

16000 in EI is rubbish - if you are going that high switch to Custom, the least of your worries will be a gamut mismatch (if such exists)

EI only works +- a stop or two from base so the three luts I suggested work fine.

For way off colour or off base ISo use custom ISO and WB and NR if required and the mid lut to monitor.

Used this way all is good.

S
 
Im not following. EI at three densities, every Custom setting at three densities and many WB, level of sharpening, and NR seemsto be many sizes.. and that is just Slog.
 
As a wedding/event shooter it is WAY easier for me to quickly switch between the 3 EI presets on the FS7 - especially if its a dim lit wedding - I like to bump the EI to 4000, so that I can see better while recording, and this also lets me know I can do the same in post.

To me, this is much easier than having three separate LUTS I will constantly have to keep changing between, especially if I'm not sure if I want to bump down or up in the first place, a switch on the camera body saves all that precious time. A

And yes, the 502 can hold a bunch of luts, aka adding three for each lut would be no problem at all, BUT what if you have 20 different luts installed (so once I add three of every lut, that puts 60 luts on my 502) and don't know which one you'll use the day of the event? The 502 doesn't make that the easiest/quickest process in the world since it doesn't save your position down the list of luts once you choose one.

So like I said, for me at least, StarCentral's comment about changing the FS7 to have a S-LOG 2 LUT, doesn't change my image at all and lets the differences in EI show up on screen - since you need some sort of MLUT activated on the FS7 in order to see those changes in your image.
 
Either way it seems like an awful lot of trouble for very little (if any) benefit. I have two words for you: SCENE FILES.
 
yeah, but that takes me back into Custom mode, haha. I don't feel that the solution I have is trouble at all. It's just activating one LUT on the camera, which doesn't affect the image at all, and leaving it that way until I change to another gamma, like S-log 3 instead of S-log 2, for example. Then afterwards my LUT options are endless on the 502.

Now everyone has me worried that I might be affecting the final image! haha
 
1027.

IMO the camera does not perform in CineEI well at all if you rate much above 1600.

Using actual in camera gain/noirse reduction is IMO far cleaner than under exposing and pushing (recovering) in post

For a dynamic event coverage such as a wedding I would look to shoot at CustomEI Slog... or certainly switch to that mode for the evening session.

You get ISO, WB et al and a great image to the monitor via a single LUT.

You may wish to check my blog and also the test images at the bottom of the page showing EI vs Custom in dark environments.

http://www.sammorganmoore.com/fs7-how-i-use-it-jan15/

If you start to enjoy Slog/Custom rather than being put off by mystical internet 'wrong gamut' chat your enjoyment of the camera and monitor will doubtless increase by a large margin.

S
 
morgan_moore said:
If you start to enjoy Slog/Custom rather than being put off by mystical internet 'wrong gamut' chat your enjoyment of the camera and monitor will doubtless increase by a large margin.
Click to expand...

It's not a matter of right or wrong gamuts, just a matter of knowing that you can end up with subtly different looking colors between modes. Sony acknowledges in their S-Log3 white paper that they had included the old color science in the cameras to maintain backwards compatibility. That makes sense, but then have selectable color gamut for each mode so that if you need to switch between Custom or CineEI you don't have yet another wrench to deal with in post.

Again, not right or wrong, or impossible to "grade", just something that if you go off and shoot an event like the Holi Festival of Colors, or a wedding with vibrant colored dresses and colored accent LED lighting at the reception will surely look like two different cameras later on if you switch modes. You want to deal with that in post or try to explain it on a more serious commercial gig to creatives, go ahead.

In this article by DP Art Adams you can see the subtleties between his test shots, not miraculous, but at least you can see they do exist and are not as it's said "mystical" or "magical".

http://www.dvinfo.net/article/acquisition/sonyxdcam/sony_sgamut_vs_sgamut3.html

In this article I wrote which DVinfo published, I had shot an x-rite color chart in every possible combination of mode and color gamut available on the camera to really be able to see the differences. The full resolution charts can be downloaded as well if anyone wants to play around with them.

http://www.dvinfo.net/article/acqui...ng-cineei-mode-in-custom-mode-on-the-f55.html
 
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It's noisy because Sony disabled noise reduction in CineEI mode when it first came out (again, Sony and other experts tell you that CineEI mode means = post workflow) but as of version 5 for the F5/F55 it is back and makes a huge difference. I do not know the status of NR in CineEI mode on the FS7 as of present day. What I do know is beforehand I had to spend $400 for a NR plugin to do the work for me.

Also please realize that 16,000 ISO was just an arbitrary number I picked, maybe a shooter wants 500 ISO, 8000 ISO, etc.. I do accept your work around of carrying a USB stick of LUTs but I don't like it. A shooter if he wants, should be able to (like we have for 2 decades) use the ISO in order to set the baseline gain of the camera. But I digress, CineEI mode "IS" designed for post according to Sony engineers, hence all these problems to begin with when trying to use it for anything else.
 
There is no USB stick of luts, I use one.

Im just saying you could use three in EI mode if you wanted to replicate 3 setting of EI.

To me I find the camera simple to use..

Making a film? CineEI rated at about 1000

Doing a corporate? Custom Slog, 2000, 4000, 8000 on the switch

So I have one LUT on my monitor, and it works in all modes, all ISOs and all frame rates and during playback.

I also have a source (log) WFM which works in all framerates and with the (monitor generated) lut applied.

The cost to my simple set up? I must make my films at 1000, I must use the wrong gamut for corporate work. On paper maybe problematic, in reality.. perfect.

The DP502 now add firmware with losts more stuff.. http://www.smallhd.com/community/500-series-waveform-audio-meters?utm_source=customer list&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Firmware_1.0_Email

S
 
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