FS7: FS7 Setting To Match Cine 4, Cine in A7S?

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karma17

Well-known member
I am going to be shooting an event with both the A7S and FS7, and on the A7S, my preferred mode is Cine 4, Cine color space. I will be shooting primarily with the A7S, especially for some Steadicam shots. The A7S CINE modes are defined by Sony as:

Cine1: Softens the contrast in dark parts and emphasizes gradation in bright parts to produce a relaxed color movie. (equivalent to HG4609G33)
Cine2: Similar to [Cine1] but optimized for editing with up to 100% video signal. (equivalent to HG4600G30)
Cine3: Intensifies the contrast in light and shade more than [Cine1] and [Cine2] and strengthens gradation in black.
Cine4: Strengthens the contrast in dark parts more than [Cine3]. The contrast in dark parts is lower and the contrast in bright parts is higher than for
 
Typically when I'm trying to get the A7s to match one of the regular Sony cameras (PDW-F355 / EX1 / F3 / FS7 / etc.) going for a 709 color look I start by adjusting the A7s to:
Black level -2
Blacg gamma Middle / Level -3
Knee Manual / 92.5% / Slope +3
Color ITU 709
Saturation -2
Color Depth (All) +1

In my experience, this seems to render a similar look to CineGamma / hyperGamma settings on the others.
Though Normaly need to tweak the Matrix settings a bit on the other camera(s).
The editors tell me they have to make only minimal adjustments afterwards in post...
 
None of the color spaces on the FS7 correspond to Cine3 or Cine4. Your best bets are Cine1 and Cine2, which you noted are HyperGamma 4 and HyperGamma 2. Making adjustments in the paint menu to try to match would just be a guessing game.
 
I did not know that. That's strange because you'd think there would be some compatibility there. It is confusing to me how Sony describes Cine 4 by saying it strengthens the contrast in the "dark parts" more than Cine 3, while Cine 3 is described as strengthening the gradations in black. I guess I will go conservatively then and probably use Cine 1. I realize this is the FS7 forum, but on the A7S, I thought the Cine 1,2,3, and 4 referred to the gamma curve, and then for color space, you can choose either Cine or S-Gamut among others. Is the S-Gamut in the A7S different from the S-Gamut on the FS7?

Thanks again!
 
A color space encompasses the gamma curve and the gamut, though sometimes people say "color space" to mean just the gamut. Yes, Cine1-4 are gamma curves. Cine1 is just another name for HyperGamma 4 and Cine2 is another name for HyperGamma 2. Cine3 and 4 don't correspond to any of the HyperGammas. S-Gamut on the A7S is non-standard and not the same as S-Gamut on any other camera, so I don't recommend it. Stick to one of the standard color modes on the A7S. "Still" color mode on the A7S is my favorite, which will be a pretty close match for the Standard color matrix on the FS7. S-Gamut is hit and miss across the different Sony cameras. S-Gamut3 and S-Gamut3.Cine are better implementations and they're fine. (And incidentally the S-Gamut and S-Gamut3 gamuts are defined identically, so there's never a reason to use S-Gamut if S-Gamut3 is available) So these ought to be almost perfect matches for each other, but do test to make sure:

A7S: Cine1 gamma, Still color mode
FS7: HyperGamma 4, Standard color matrix

These will also match:

A7S: S-Log2 gamma, Still color mode
FS7: S-Log2 gamma, Standard color matrix

though I don't recommend S-Log2 on the A7S for reasons I explain. On the A7S you get 3.5 more stops of highlight range in Cine1 than in S-Log2.
 
Jacob - I read your recommendations again, and have a question: how do you find the S-Log2 in combination with the Still color matrix rather than S-Gamut? I hate the 8-bit banding, so should avoiding S-Gamut help - why not? Frankly, I cannot agree about Cine1/2 gammas giving more DR than S-Log2, though (I'm shooting on A7Rii not A7Sii, but still)... Thanks,

Piotr
 
When I need to match the two I use HG7 in the fs7 and cine 4 in the a7s, I've had good results with this combo
 
2 thoughts neither of which I've tested :)
1- I would guess that Wes's idea of matching Cine 4 to HG7 makes sense. Both are Cine type gammas that raise the gamma point higher. If not identical they do similar things.

2- Its recommended to over expose Slog2 as much 2 stops when used on the A7Sii and that is first of all a huge PITA, and also presumably would reduce headroom. In that case Cine 4 might end up having equal or more headroom in practice. Just a guess though. It is sure easier to work in Cine 4.
 
moldcad said:
Jacob - I read your recommendations again, and have a question: how do you find the S-Log2 in combination with the Still color matrix rather than S-Gamut? I hate the 8-bit banding, so should avoiding S-Gamut help - why not?
Click to expand...
In 8 bits, S-Log2 (or S-Log3) will have more banding than Cine1-4, and S-Gamut (or S-Gamut3) will have more banding than a standard gamut. If you want to minimize banding, don't use S-Log2 or 3 and don't use S-Gamut or S-Gamut3. On the Sony Alpha cameras, S-Log2 and S-Log3 have no advantages over Cine1-4, so I don't use them.

Frankly, I cannot agree about Cine1/2 gammas giving more DR than S-Log2, though (I'm shooting on A7Rii not A7Sii, but still)... Thanks,
Click to expand...
The recommendation was specific to the A7S. And I didn't say more dynamic range. I said more highlight range, by which I mean the maximum exposure (lux seconds) before clipping.
 
balazer said:
S-Gamut on the A7S is non-standard and not the same as S-Gamut on any other camera, so I don't recommend it. Stick to one of the standard color modes on the A7S. "Still" color mode on the A7S is my favorite, which will be a pretty close match for the Standard color matrix on the FS7. S-Gamut is hit and miss across the different Sony cameras.
reasons I explain. On the A7S you get 3.5 more stops of highlight range in Cine1 than in S-Log2.
Click to expand...

This is very helpful. But I was curious, what happens when you load SGamut A7S footage into a program such as Resolve and you apply a Sony LUT. Would there be some misinterpretation of colors since it is non-standard? Would it be better to grade without a LUT in that case?

I notice on plug-ins like Film Convert, they use the profiles specific to the camera. Resolve doesn't do that, does it? You'd have to create or find your own LUT?

Thanks again. I enjoy reading your comments.
 
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