Other: FS7/FX9/EOS vs Red for Business reasons?

[Airwolf]

So I have a question to anyone out there with experience shooting on high end Canon (C300, C500, C700) and Sony (FS7) systems as compared to owning a Red system.
I've owned a C100, currently have a FS5 as my A-Cam, and probably going to be upgrading to something "bigger" within the next 6 months or so.

So i'm not asking this based on technical reasons, but as a business. Do you ever get calls from people saying I need you to come shoot if you have THIS camera, specifically, "I need a Red".
My question is, looking at the C500 Mark II or FX9, it's very easy to get up into the $20k range with cards, batteries, etc, which is "close" to Red territory. More so the C500, but you get the point.
I'd rather have a C500 or FX9 style camera than a Red, it's just easier to use, checks all the boxes, and I don't have to deal with Red.

No one that has ever hired me as specifically asked for a camera, but am I losing potential business because i'm not advertising myself as a Red shooter?

Thanks,

- Paul

 

[Tom Roper]

My clients don't know. It can be a plus or a negative, since some of my clients are other shooters, upstage them too much, they don't want you. The usual reaction from corporate clients is surprise that you can get amazing footage from a GH5, has them asking why they don't have their own departments shoot the event. If you are shooting for an ad agency or Revlon, it could matter, but other things matter more like your reputation. I see shooters all the time on the road to nowhere because of a mistaken belief that a camera is going to win you a contract. When the particular camera is the chief consideration, I've seen more guys get hired because it was cheaper to hire them than to rent the equipment, not a place you want to be. Don't get caught up in it.

 

[Jim Feeley]

In my circles, we used to hear "I want to shoot on RED" more often a few years ago. Now, perhaps, "We want to shoot on an Arri" is more common. But sometimes it's FS7 or C300mkII. But whateves. This in more high-end corporate. But many DPs I work with don't own a camera, or own one or two. And we'll/they'll rent a particular camera if the project (or the client) requires it. We have a couple great rental houses here (SF Bay Area) and a few more OK ones.

And the online places (Borrow Lenses, Lens Pro To Go, etc) have a growing array of cameras, so even if you don't have a good rental house near you, you can get the cameras you need. Sure, you lose the profit center, but you can still pass along the rental cost (and a hassle fee) to the client. But if the client wants RED and wants to pay $800/day all in, that's just not a client worth working with, imo.

My hunch is that the C500mkII and FX9 will be able to cover lots of needs for lots of clients. If a client "needs" a RED or Arri (or Venice or Varicam or...) camera, then rent it.

 

[Donny 123]

Its totally dependent on your market.. for corporate /doc,s / events.. I would say the fs7 clearly has a huge chunk of the market .. nearly every email I get for work is fs7 or similar .. I have an f5.. similar would include the c300II I would presume.. but fs7 is requested probably 99% .. if you want a bit of future proof the fx9 or C500II would be the choice .. FF is, for good or bad, definitely going to be the next "thing" that all productions will latch onto .. its coming very obviously .. and the camera makers get to shift more product .. RED has always been a niche market .. if your in that group, have a flannel skirt and thats your market get one.. if not I think its a bit risky compared to the fx9 and c500II..by far more well known work flows.. fx9 on the surface looks to be a killer camera at a much lower price than the C500II.. I think alot of f5/55 fs7 owners will be making the change to FF Fx9..

 

[JPNola]

I've never had a client request a RED camera.

I've had clients request a C300, clients request an Fs7, and clients request an ARRI. The breakdown there is roughly 50% fs7, 40% C300, 10% ARRI. The C300 requests dwindled once the Fs7 came out. Since the Fs7 came out the requests have been roughly 70% Fs7, 20% C300, 10% ARRI.

On only about 5% of my jobs does a client request a specific camera. It happens when the client is wanting to match footage shot in another market. And it happens when a client is coming into town with their DP who is bringing a camera and the client is looking to hire me to serve as B-camera.

 

[Martin.G]

Second the others. For my corporate work around my town, im the only one with a proper camera. All my competitors shoot on photography equipment. Clients never ask up front about my camera, but are surely impressed when i come with a proper cam on a proper tripod.

After wanting a RED for years for nature filming, im now looking at the C500 II because it looks to be the perfect match between FS7 operability, and RED raw internal footage. And cheaper at that. Lacking some features from both camps, but thats the tradeoff. The dual AF and raw will fit perfectly into my nature tv-series we are trying to sell now.

For the TV-jobs ive been getting, it has been asked about FS7 and delight when i could confirm. Never been asked about any other camera by clients.

Edit: Have your clients asked for a RED up until now? If not, perhaps you wont get your investment back, at all. The Canon i assume is most likely about color, raw, and AF. If you need those, go for it. Otherwise, im still happy as heck with my FS7. Gonna wait for the next FS9 tbh. Unless something happens to my current cam.

 

[dipstik]

I will say that personally, I do in fact get hired because I'm an FS7 owner. This is for TV/doc/corporate work. I also hire other local shooters that are FS7 owner/operators with regularity.

A lot of times, a series DP will fly into town, and I'll get picked up as B-Cam. A lot of these old hat DP's are shooting the F5 or F55, so they know an FS7 cuts with it nicely. I have also had the FS7 requested by the big name TV networks for multi-day shoots. Everybody seems to know the FS7 is a reliable camera that produces good results. It just works. C300 as well, but to a lesser extent.

As far as RED...I think the issue is that their lineup is fragmented. How many people really know the difference between a Dragon and a Gemini? It's confusing, and not all of the RED cameras have been great products. RED would make sense if you do a lot of commercial or narrative work, but at that level, personally, I'd rather be using an ARRI.

I'd love to shoot on Canon, as I've always loved their lenses and overall I prefer working with their camera systems, but Sony makes me money.

I think the FX9 will be a massive success, and it may jump up the food chain a little bit, and you'll see DP's moving from F5's, F55's, and FS7's to the FX9. It will be a great investment, and you certainly won't lose a job in the next 5+ years because you own an FX9.

 

[J.Brown]

It just depends on what you do. I hear when shooting music videos Red cameras are asked for by the chic people but money is in corporate videos as you do a lot of them and pay is usually very good and then FS7 is king. For commercial work it's Arri or Red. And it's divided mostly between Red owners and Arri hired cameras.

So it comes down to what kind of work one do and which camera can be the right choice. But thankfully the cameras these days are so good it comes down to personal preference rather than image quality.

 

[bill totolo]

I worked a booth at NAB this year and met about 300 cinematographers. I asked everyone what camera system they used.

By and large everyone across the board said they use a Sony FS7 primarily, followed by the Canon C300MKII, then the ARRI Alexa mini, finally the classic Canon C300MKI.
After that it went into DSLR territory (mostly dominated by Panasonic GH cameras), and finally Red cameras.

By no means am I speaking about the quality, usability or reliability of a camera system. Just reporting my anecdotal experience.

 

[Doug Jensen]

Anyone in this business who does corporate ought to know who Crews Control is, right? They hire crews for hundreds of shoots every month around the world. Here are their statistics for August. The FS7 mark I and mark 2 account for 4x as many shoots as the next closest camera. The most surprising thing to me is that the FS5 accounts for less than 2%.

 

[Run&Gun]

Anyone in this business who does corporate ought to know who Crews Control is, right? They hire crews for hundreds of shoots every month around the world. Here are their statistics for August. The FS7 mark I and mark 2 account for 4x as many shoots as the next closest camera. The most surprising thing to me is that the FS5 accounts for less than 2%.

View attachment 137385

What's just as surprising is that the F55 is less than 3%(and F5 less than 2%). I understand that this is probably for ALL shoots that they book. I'd be curious to see the breakdown for broadcast/network, because the 55/5 is still big in the network/broadcast feature and sports world. And I'm sure if you would have looked at a list like this 10 years ago, VariCam's and HDX-900's would have been at least near the top, if not in the top two/three spots. Now Panasonic isn't even close to the top 10 or has a specific model in the list period.

 

[puredrifting]

A few things I've learned over the years with cameras

#1. Totally 100% depends on your market. What type of production/clients/regional and or geographic area do you exist in? People in my market who get asked for REDs are usually shooting music videos, some commercials and once in a while, a feature.
In your market, might be totally different. Then you break that down to type of work. REDs are not used in very many corporate videos in comparison to FS7s and C300 MKIIs. But FS7s and C300 MKIIs aren't used on very many music videos
or commercials. See how that works?

#2. If you are in this business as a business and not as a hobby, it's a terrible business decision to buy ANY camera and HOPE that you will gain business from owning the camera. It's a different story if you have regular, repeat clients
who have consistently requested a certain camera, then, if they are willing to give you a signed contract or at least a good verbal agreement and handshake that they want to keep on working with you with that camera, sure, go for it.

Sharegrid, Mandys, Craigslist are full of ads from people who have made this dumb mistake (buying a camera package in the hopes of landing gigs just from owning that cool camera) and are giving away the use of their expensive gear
for pennies on the dollar because they bought a camera, hoping to gain work from just owning that camera. That's why you can get a RED Monstro package in LA with the owner operator as cheap as $400.00 per day.
That person is desperate to even make their lease or finance payment, which is why they are totally devaluing the market, their own short shortsightedness and lack of business acumen.

#3. You want to be hired based upon your work, lighting and skills, not from a piece of gear you own. There will ALWAYS be someone who owns the same or better in your market and will rent it or include it in their day rate for a lot LESS than you.

4. Plenty of successful DPs and camera operators do not own a camera. Buy an insurance package and build a relationship with a rental source and you can rent whatever camera is best for the project instead of trying to shoehorn
every project into using your camera. Yes, you won't own the camera as a profit center, but you'll have the advantage of working with the best gear on the ever changing market instead of constantly worrying that your camera
you OWN is out of date and now you need to buy camera XYZ so you have the coolest new toy. Terrible business model for most. We do a combination of both, we truly evaluate budget and image needs for each shoot and if
our C200 is the right tool, we'll use it. But when it's not, we rent a camera that's better for the shoot/project. We've rented the C300 MKII, FS7, F55, REDs, Arris, Phantoms, I think we will be renting the BMD UMP G2 now that I have shot with it
and saw what a great deal it is if you just need some 120-160 fps footage that your camera can't quite get. I like shooting with our C200, but it's not paramount that we work it for every shoot, that would be doing our customers a disservice.

5. If you decide your DP skills aren't of the level where people will hire you because of your skills alone, wait to buy a camera package for when you land one shoot or project that pays for it. After that project, the camera will then
be a profit center for at least a few years. We bought our C200 almost two years ago, three projects over the first few months we owned it paid it off. Now, every day that I am hired with the camera, I bill out the camera package
at $450.00 to $650.00 per day, depending on lenses and accessories needed. That's not a bad profit but it only matters when you get hired. When you are not working, that C200 is a rapidly depreciating asset that needs to be replaced,
if you are lucky, at least every 2-3 years, although as we are maxing out of resolution and technology.

I personally feel that almost any pro digital cinema camera you buy today could be viable for the next 3-5 years, possibly longer. VERY few clients need anything greater than 4K resolution today or will for the foreseeable future.
6K and 8K and eventually 12K and 16K will just be marketing hype to get people to buy new cameras for the next few years. Generally, the video that your audience watches will be HD for the foreseeeable future even though consumers
are all hyped over 4K TVs, back in the real world, very few services can reliably stream 1080, much less 4K content. So all of that resolution hype is coming but it's a VERY slow train.

We partially bought the C200, our first 4K camera because of our clients talking about, but not committing to wanting to shoot and have projects delivered in 4K. Bad business move, we should have just kept our C100 and C300 MKI,
both were totally paid off for many years and were still generating plenty of profits. We sold them off, bought the C200 and lo and behold, all of those clients who were "talking about" 4K were still DEMANDING that we NOT even shoot,
much less deliver 4K footage. Even today, this year, I would estimate at least half of our of our projects and shoots have been in 1080, not 4K. Don't let the hype you read here and elsewhere sucker you into thinking that you NEED to
buy a camera that has so and so K resolution, this feature or that, listen to your paying clients and what they want and what they are willing to pay for, then do that. It's really simple if you approach it as a market driven exercise than
an "impress other people who are in your business" exercise.

 

[puredrifting]

What's just as surprising is that the F55 is less than 3%(and F5 less than 2%). I understand that this is probably for ALL shoots that they book. I'd be curious to see the breakdown for broadcast/network, because the 55/5 is still big in the network/broadcast feature and sports world. And I'm sure if you would have looked at a list like this 10 years ago, VariCam's and HDX-900's would have been at least near the top, if not in the top two/three spots. Now Panasonic isn't even close to the top 10 or has a specific model in the list period.

The commercial campaign (National) that I just worked on for a couple of weeks was shooting multiple F55s. In LA. I was surprised when I got to set that they weren't shooting Arris, but the F55s worked great.

 

[puredrifting]

I will say that personally, I do in fact get hired because I'm an FS7 owner. This is for TV/doc/corporate work. I also hire other local shooters that are FS7 owner/operators with regularity.

A lot of times, a series DP will fly into town, and I'll get picked up as B-Cam. A lot of these old hat DP's are shooting the F5 or F55, so they know an FS7 cuts with it nicely. I have also had the FS7 requested by the big name TV networks for multi-day shoots. Everybody seems to know the FS7 is a reliable camera that produces good results. It just works. C300 as well, but to a lesser extent.

As far as RED...I think the issue is that their lineup is fragmented. How many people really know the difference between a Dragon and a Gemini? It's confusing, and not all of the RED cameras have been great products. RED would make sense if you do a lot of commercial or narrative work, but at that level, personally, I'd rather be using an ARRI.

I'd love to shoot on Canon, as I've always loved their lenses and overall I prefer working with their camera systems, but Sony makes me money.

I think the FX9 will be a massive success, and it may jump up the food chain a little bit, and you'll see DP's moving from F5's, F55's, and FS7's to the FX9. It will be a great investment, and you certainly won't lose a job in the next 5+ years because you own an FX9.

I have to say, as a Canon owner, I have been heavily tempted to pick up a lightly used FS7 package even though I am not crazy about the camera.
I don't think you'll see the client trend move to the FX9 or C500 MKII for a long time, if ever. I have to hand it to Sony, they hit a total home run with the FS7, it's soooo popular.
I have only rented the FS7 twice but my producing partner, who ironically owns a RED, rents the FS7 all of the time, it's almost the only camera he is ever asked for but he does more
low to mid level corporate than I have been doing. FS7 seems to be a good business move if you are constantly deluged with requests for it. There is that point when you keep renting
and keep renting but then just buy it so you can make the profit instead of the rental house. I'm just not there yet, but we'll see what the next few months brings with day playing.

If you are comfortable posting, which market are you in and what do you charge your clients for your FS7 package?

 

[Liam Hall]

Anyone in this business who does corporate ought to know who Crews Control is, right? They hire crews for hundreds of shoots every month around the world. Here are their statistics for August. The FS7 mark I and mark 2 account for 4x as many shoots as the next closest camera. The most surprising thing to me is that the FS5 accounts for less than 2%.

View attachment 137385

5 years ago, before I switched to Sony, I mostly shot on the Canon C300, which would have been top of your list in 2014. It was an easy decision to move to the Sony FS7 back then as the FS7 hit the sweet spot. Today, I'm selling all my Sony stuff and moving back to Canon with the C500MkII because it better suits my current needs. Ultimately, that's all that matters.

 

[IronFilm]

If you're just your usual run of the mill "owner op" cameraman, then you'll get hired more owning a FS7 (not just more than a RED, even more than Canon C series as well).

 

[IronFilm]

Anyone in this business who does corporate ought to know who Crews Control is, right? They hire crews for hundreds of shoots every month around the world. Here are their statistics for August. The FS7 mark I and mark 2 account for 4x as many shoots as the next closest camera. The most surprising thing to me is that the FS5 accounts for less than 2%.

View attachment 137385

I'm shocked that the FS5 is so low (especially as in HD it is basically an "FS7", and a *LOT* of people are still shooting in HD)

But I'm even more shocked the EX3 is still ranked so high!!

 

[Donny 123]

I have to say, as a Canon owner, I have been heavily tempted to pick up a lightly used FS7 package even though I am not crazy about the camera.
I don't think you'll see the client trend move to the FX9 or C500 MKII for a long time, if ever. I have to hand it to Sony, they hit a total home run with the FS7, it's soooo popular.
I have only rented the FS7 twice but my producing partner, who ironically owns a RED, rents the FS7 all of the time, it's almost the only camera he is ever asked for but he does more
low to mid level corporate than I have been doing. FS7 seems to be a good business move if you are constantly deluged with requests for it. There is that point when you keep renting
and keep renting but then just buy it so you can make the profit instead of the rental house. I'm just not there yet, but we'll see what the next few months brings with day playing.

If you are comfortable posting, which market are you in and what do you charge your clients for your FS7 package?

I agree with what your saying.. but the whole 6K down sampling for a "better" 4K will become the next thing.. .. be it the c500II or the fx9.. pushed by the manufactures too.. it will gain traction..and become a must have.. as we saw in the rapid change to s35 in documentaries .. that very few gained from and most it was a pain in the arse and shots were missed changing lenses or B4 was used in which case either no difference to ⅔ or losing 2 stops or more making the DoF the same as ⅔ .. that not makes any sense has nothing to do with it.. directors and producers are very easily led by the nose.. they always want to have the latest "buzz".. and what their colleagues are shooting .. its an industry of gear trends .. and fashion.. want to be a "real film maker " Alexa Mini or your nothing.. really I think this will happen and force us all into the 6K sensor world ..

 

[Barry1908]

I agree with what your saying.. but the whole 6K down sampling for a "better" 4K will become the next thing.. .. be it the c500II or the fx9.. pushed by the manufactures too.. it will gain traction..and become a must have.. as we saw in the rapid change to s35 in documentaries .. that very few gained from and most it was a pain in the arse and shots were missed changing lenses or B4 was used in which case either no difference to ⅔ or losing 2 stops or more making the DoF the same as ⅔ .. that not makes any sense has nothing to do with it.. directors and producers are very easily led by the nose.. they always want to have the latest "buzz".. and what their colleagues are shooting .. its an industry of gear trends .. and fashion.. want to be a "real film maker " Alexa Mini or your nothing.. really I think this will happen and force us all into the 6K sensor world ..

I don’t think you can compare extra resolution which is even hard to notice on smaller screens anyway to the massive shift that was the DSLR look from 2/3”... or rather the 35mm adaptor revolution for those of us who were there. I think the money is on anyone with an fs7 now but in 12 months time as to what the better business decision is. But I wouldn’t be surprised if it was the nothing idea either and people keep using what they have because it’s good enough. As a c100mk1 user I either need to stay cheap like the gh5 or jump up a level so I can distinguish myself in the market. Had a client ask for 4k the other day but when it was going to change the quote they were happy to have what they needed which was log. Although 4k is always nice for reframing...

 

[Barry1908]

I agree with what your saying.. but the whole 6K down sampling for a "better" 4K will become the next thing.. .. be it the c500II or the fx9.. pushed by the manufactures too.. it will gain traction..and become a must have.. as we saw in the rapid change to s35 in documentaries .. that very few gained from and most it was a pain in the arse and shots were missed changing lenses or B4 was used in which case either no difference to ⅔ or losing 2 stops or more making the DoF the same as ⅔ .. that not makes any sense has nothing to do with it.. directors and producers are very easily led by the nose.. they always want to have the latest "buzz".. and what their colleagues are shooting .. its an industry of gear trends .. and fashion.. want to be a "real film maker " Alexa Mini or your nothing.. really I think this will happen and force us all into the 6K sensor world ..

I don’t think you can compare extra resolution which is even hard to notice on smaller screens anyway to the massive shift that was the DSLR look from 2/3”... or rather the 35mm adaptor revolution for those of us who were there. I think the money is on anyone with an fs7 not now but in 12 months time as to what the better business decision is. But I wouldn’t be surprised if it was the nothing idea either and people keep using what they have because it’s good enough. As a c100mk1 user I either need to stay cheap like the gh5 or jump up a level so I can distinguish myself in the market. Had a client ask for 4k the other day but when it was going to change the quote they were happy to have what they needed which was log. Although 4k is always nice for reframing...