FS7: FS7 and Amira side by side

G

Gene Sung

Veteran

https://vimeo.com/118506668

After seeing that Sony tests where the F55 was matched to the Alexa, I did a B-Cam job to an Alexa a few weeks back on a network promo. I told the DP - who is an established commercial DP - that the FS7 should match pretty close with the LC709A LUT. However, they were using vintage Cooke Panchros from the 1970s which had a very stylized look since they wanted a Wes Anderson vibe. I was on a Canon 70-200 picking off close-ups since the schedule was very, very tight.

The shot did NOT MATCH at all. They did match them in post, but I was super embarrassed and I felt bad.

So I really wanted to see if the FS7 could be a B-Cam to the Alexa with similar lenses. I reached out to Nate Weaver who was super cool and donated his time and his Amira for some quick side by sides. These tests are far from perfect since we just blazed through it, I really just wanted to see if the FS7 could be a B-Cam in terms of vibe, color, highlights and just general image asethetics.

All the tech bullet points are in the Vimeo write up.

No color grading was done, just matching levels and saturation. I also tested the LC709a in addition to adjusting levels and saturation without a LUT.

While it might not be the Alexa, the FS7 makes a pretty good showing and could be a worthy B-Cam with some color matching. I think that LC709a for the most part is pretty great, however, in one of the shots it made my face super pink, which could have been fixed with some color tweaks, but I chose to just leave it at the natural colors for the world to see me as a pink albino bunny. One thing I was really surprised by was how well the FS7 holds the highlights. No sure if any other camera priced under the F5 can hold highlights like that. Well... probably the Scarlet, but that ends up being the same price or more than the F5 for a useable configuration.

People should NOT think they’re getting an Alexa level camera for $8K, because they are not. Like many, I think Alexa and the Dragon lead the pack, but for the money the FS7 is great. Cine EI mode gives a very filmic image for such a low price. Unlike prior mid-range Sony cameras like the FS700, CineEI look really nice with just some saturation and levels added. Very minimal effort.

NOTE: Alister Chapman said that the LC709a was made for the F55 which has a different color space than the F5 / FS7, so the F55 would match closer to the Alexa.
 
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Ya the F55 has a different colour array and sensor than the F5/FS7.

No matter what you shot the B cam on if they weren't going to provide similar lensing it would always be off. I wouldn't feel bad that is the productions fault not yours. A Canon 70-200 and a vintage Cooke will never match up without effort in post.
 
wow... that's pretty good, and I agree that the FS7 held those highlights, especially the sun on the arms shots, very well.
 
Its funny in the side by sides with luts applied the Amira looks green tinged and the FS7 looks magenta tinged. Somewhere in the middle would perfect. Although its easy enough to correct. Gene what happens if you take that same FS7 shot into Catalyst Browse and use the tint slider to shift a bit more towards green? Looks like it would be easy fix.

Thanks for taking the time. I know we all really appreciate it. Nate also. What a standup guy.
 
FrameFarmMedia said:
Its funny in the side by sides with luts applied the Amira looks green tinged and the FS7 looks magenta tinged. Somewhere in the middle would perfect. Although its easy enough to correct. Gene what happens if you take that same FS7 shot into Catalyst Browse and use the tint slider to shift a bit more towards green? Looks like it would be easy fix.

Thanks for taking the time. I know we all really appreciate it. Nate also. What a standup guy.
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Yeah, it's a super easy fix, but this side by side I just wanted to show the natural colors of the cameras with no alterations.

And yes, that was super cool of Nate. Next time, I do feel I can say with some confidence that the FS7 can be ballpark to the Alexa with some color matching in post.
 
Nice test Gene, and surely with the next firmware release on the FS7 the slight magenta cast will go away. Even if not I don't see it being a problem to dial down in post.
 
Despite the fact that Sony drives me nuts with firmware/"can't walk and chew gum at same time" issues, I suspect I'll wind up with an FS7 as a lightweight/lower rate alternative to the Amira at some point. Even though the FS7 didn't seem to match quite as effortlessly as I remember the Alexa/55 combo I did last year, it's obviously still way closer than any other options. Canon, nor Blackmagic or CION etc. wouldn't be able to get this close.

It's really about 90% there in image quality. Just not first choice for the work I do for so many other reasons. I'd love to take one on a real run & gun doc project.

But everything else about the Amira makes me swoon.
 
I'd say its barely able to B-cam fro an Amira. The FS7 just has that sony skin no matter how you play it. Also check out the red leaf over his shoulder in the closer corrected side by side shot. Amira is red, Sony is red/pink/washed out.
 
VinceinLA said:
I'd say its barely able to B-cam fro an Amira. The FS7 just has that sony skin no matter how you play it. Also check out the red leaf over his shoulder in the closer corrected side by side shot. Amira is red, Sony is red/pink/washed out.
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First this isn't really a controlled test.
but 2nd - I don't think it's that different - it handles highlights generally the same and yea color shift you can probably fix pretty well.

I'm actually kind of disappointed in the image quality of the Amira, and always have been a little disappointed in the Alexa. once I found out that the "best" camera is just another "flaweed" camera like every camera that exists, it's kind of a downer. there is nothing to work towards materially anymore. I mean, I personally can't "buy myself" into a better DP - I now have to practice and learn how to DP.

now I am faced with the sad realization that I am sure many of you occasoinally feel - it's not the shoes that will make me good at basketball, it's how much I practice.

And who wants to practice getting good at cinematography when we can waste the rest of our lives on these forums not talking about lighting or lens composition but about quantifying the quality of the glass? Not about technique but nuts and bolts.

God that's depressing.
 
eddavid said:
now I am faced with the sad realization that I am sure many of you occasoinally feel - it's not the shoes that will make me good at basketball, it's how much I practice.

And who wants to practice getting good at cinematography when we can waste the rest of our lives on these forums not talking about lighting or lens composition but about quantifying the quality of the glass? Not about technique but nuts and bolts.

God that's depressing.
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LOL, yeah... where is the camera with the "Make it look pretty" button?

To me skin tones are nice on CineEi and I've been just so impressed by the FS7 for the price. Yeah, there's a hint of magenta, but it's still pretty dang good IMO. Hopefully, Sony can take down the magenta just a hair in CineEI since they're fixing the major magenta mess in all the other modes.

Color is easily fixable, highlights are not; and that's where the FS7 shines over most / all the other cameras in its range.
 
VinceinLA said:
I'd say its barely able to B-cam fro an Amira. The FS7 just has that sony skin no matter how you play it. Also check out the red leaf over his shoulder in the closer corrected side by side shot. Amira is red, Sony is red/pink/washed out.
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What do you mean by 'Sony Skin' Vince?
 
gene_can_sing said:
In Resolve there is an Arri LogC to Rec709 LUT supplied by Arri.
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I've done about six Amira productions and we are always unhappy with the Resolve Arri Log to 709 Lut. It never looks like 709 does in camera and skin tones are always slightly green. IMO, Resolve needs to update that LUT. Don't know why it's like that, but when everyone likes the footage in camera and on our calibrated on-set monitors (all using the 709 image from camera), the LogC recording that gets the 709 LUT in resolve never looks the same nor better.
It's just weird. That LUT is for Alexa, so maybe there is a small difference? I'm not sure.

Did you notice any slight green tint once the LUT is applied?
 
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VinceinLA said:
I'd say its barely able to B-cam fro an Amira. The FS7 just has that sony skin no matter how you play it. Also check out the red leaf over his shoulder in the closer corrected side by side shot. Amira is red, Sony is red/pink/washed out.
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Did you see the F35 Amira test? The red looked red on the F35 and on the Amira it looked orange. Could be user settings, so maybe we shouldn't be hasty to draw conclusion based on how each camera renders red in comparison.
 
goodgoings said:
Did you see the F35 Amira test? The red looked red on the F35 and on the Amira it looked orange. Could be user settings, so maybe we shouldn't be hasty to draw conclusion based on how each camera renders red in comparison.
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Yeah, that happened. Slight differences in LUTs and profiles can render certain colors SO differently. I think you have to "average out" that part from multiple tests.
But D.R. and highlight handling is something that can be compared a little bit more objectively. Both the FS7 and the F35 seem to hold their own just fine there.
 
Grug said:
What do you mean by 'Sony Skin' Vince?
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OK - my description: Skin tones take on a certain plastic look - like excessive noise reduction can sometimes give - but it's not from noise reduction. Also the tones often seem too yellow or brown, flipping to too pink with other settings. Rendering of skin tones is the one flaw in the A7s that I just can't get over....yet.
 
I cant explain the famous Sony skin if you dont know what I mean already.

The Amira is well beyond any of these work-around cams, you have to admit that, and that is what $50K gets you. Any camera that removes me from worrying about the f***ing work-around allows me the freedom to work on what matters. Arri gets that, it looks like maybe Panasonic finally did with the new Varicam and the F35 is like that. Film cameras are the ultimate at that. The Amira is the closest thing to an Aaton film camera to me so far, considering the price in this.

I guess the FS7 is as close as we can get when you dont have the cash for an Arri but it's not for me. Forget image and LUT talk for a second and consider everything else that a good camera is. Use the enormously huge threads and amateur-talk that surrounds finding a way to make the FS7 into a shoulder rig as a good example... if I had the money, it would be worth paying another $40k just to not have to read all that crap. Should I bring up lens threads next? WORK-AROUNDS are for wannabes, hobbyist and they are all sub-$10K cameras, let's face it. Sony will get it one day but don't fool yourself that this little thing is it. I am happy using that ancient F3 (which still competes easily) and renting what is needed until they do get it.
 
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