FS100 vs AG20

jdv said:
Would the images even be close? Doesn't look like XLRs or even HDMI out - but for 4:2:0 recording, would the images be too close to tell the difference?

AG20 presser:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/1108/11082415sonynexvg20.asp#press

Mini review:
http://www.technobuffalo.com/cameras/sony-handycam-nex-vg20-camcorder-unleashed-today/
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This is just my quick take on this. The VG20 is a still camera, rehoused in a video camera body. The FS 100 is a video camera period. The VG 20 has 16 megapixels (obviously it's first job is stills as you have no reason to have that many for a HD camera). In fact, if you listen to Juan of Sony's presentation on the FS 100, he says that 3.4 (ish) megapixels is the optimum amount
for a 1080p HD camera. More than that and you start having problems with aliasing/moire. He also points out that less pixels, means larger pixels, which is better for low light, and dynamic
range. I would say, the FS 100 should be better for video. The VG 20 could be an interesting 'combo' cam as it will shoot RAW stills. But, I'm pretty sure it is not meant to challenge the FS 100 as a motion camera. However, it will be cheaper, which is a pretty big attraction to the HDSLR's to be honest. If you can get 2 or 3 cameras instead of one, and do multicamera shoots......I can see why people might go that way. But Sony's own guy, basically says that doing things the way they are being done in the VG20, is NOT the best way to go about making a good motion picture camera.
 
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AG-20, VS-20, VX-20?

It's the VG-20.. :)

I really like this cam atleast specs wise. It's cheaper and so competes directly with DSLR's priced similarly. And it also shoots RAW. Having that capability has been very important with my 7d usage. We'll see once the reviews hit.
 
I agree with you Alaskacameradude. I have a VG10 and the moire from line skipping is absolutely horrendous. To repeat what someone said earlier, If you want to take still pictures buy a DSLR, if you want to shoot video, buy a video camera. These hybrids don't really do either one very well. If your intention is to shoot videos to be watched on an iPhone, by all means, spend $2k on one of these overpriced handi-cams. But, if you're more serious about big screen projection, save yourself some money.
alaskacameradude said:
This is just my quick take on this. The VX20 is a still camera, rehoused in a video camera body. The FS 100 is a video camera period. The VG 20 has 16 megapixels (obviously it's first job is stills as you have no reason to have that many for a HD camera). In fact, if you listen to Juan of Sony's presentation on the FS 100, he says that 3.4 (ish) megapixels is the optimum amount
for a 1080p HD camera. More than that and you start having problems with aliasing/moire. He also points out that less pixels, means larger pixels, which is better for low light, and dynamic
range. I would say, the FS 100 should be better for video. The VG 20 could be an interesting 'combo' cam as it will shoot RAW stills. But, I'm pretty sure it is not meant to challenge the FS 100 as a motion camera. However, it will be cheaper, which is a pretty big attraction to the HDSLR's to be honest. If you can get 2 or 3 cameras instead of one, and do multicamera shoots......I can see why people might go that way. But Sony's own guy, basically says that doing things the way they are being done in the VS 20, is NOT the best way to go about making a good motion picture camera.
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Sony lent us one of these for a week at work, and I grabbed it for a 2nd cam to shoot additional B-roll and disliked it. Keep your wallet away!
 
cuervo said:
I have a VG10 and the moire from line skipping is absolutely horrendous.
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Which is why I did not consider buying a VG10 at all, but what if the moire/aliasing is properly taken care of with the VG20 ?

The VG20 will be a dead-duck if the moire problems haven't been fixed. ( I am also curious to see how the Sony A77 fares when it comes to moire )
 
I wouldn't rule out the imaging characteristic of the new camera until it is out out and fully tested. Remember that the vg10 was rushed to market as a proof of concept before the f3, fs100 were out. The chip is new, the processor is new, all video optimized. If anyone has read the American Cinematographer article on digital imagers, there are differences between pixels and photosites, and marketing often uses what is most beneficial for their own purposes. Sony is never going to release specific technical data, but I would not be surprised if the F3 chip really uses 4 pixel photo sites in the new diagonal bayer pattern, which results in better color and exposure latitude. Note that the venerable f35/Panavision Genesis uses 12mp ccd with line skipping, technology moves forward. 3.4 x 4 is nearly 14mp, which would be very close to the video imaging area of the VG20. 3.4 mp big pixels is a better sell to the pro arena, 16mp still sells cameras to consumers.

I'm not going to speculate that it is in fact the same chip, as it has to share photo duties with the n3, n5r, but for the price premium I would hope that it affords better video processing. Clean gain, no aliasing and moire, and hopefully minimal wobble. I have high hopes. The gh2 is also 16 mp, and 30% smaller, there is no reason to assume that sony's engineers can't at least match that performance with another year of work behind them.

Hopefully the good testers will have demos in hand sooner rather than later.
 
dop16mm said:
I wouldn't rule out the imaging characteristic of the new camera until it is out out and fully tested. Remember that the vg10 was rushed to market as a proof of concept before the f3, fs100 were out. The chip is new, the processor is new, all video optimized. If anyone has read the American Cinematographer article on digital imagers, there are differences between pixels and photosites, and marketing often uses what is most beneficial for their own purposes.
I'm not going to speculate that it is in fact the same chip, as it has to share photo duties with the n3, n5r, but for the price premium I would hope that it affords better video processing. Clean gain, no aliasing and moire, and hopefully minimal wobble. I have high hopes. The gh2 is also 16 mp, and 30% smaller, there is no reason to assume that sony's engineers can't at least match that performance with another year of work behind them.

Hopefully the good testers will have demos in hand sooner rather than later.
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I understand what you're saying. There is limited value in speculation, no argument from me. Having said that, for the fun of discussion, clearly still imaging and video imaging are two disparate scenarios. In other words, the design constraints are different for each application. I think it's a cosmic truth that in order to make both work, some compromises have to be made. It seems to be the way of things that compromising functional capability results in not being able to do wither one as well. It's like the old Volvo p1800S sports/station wagon? That was a disaster that filled neither the station wagon nor sports car niche.
 
The VG20 does have HDMI out, but it's probably the mini-HDMI plug, like the VG10.
There is moire and aliasing on the VG10 image. I expect the same from the VG20, but that's strictly speculation on my part. Still, that hasn't stopped me from using my VG10 for a few professional shoots, with success. I use it as a back-up to my XF305. It's mainly the lack of any kind of focus assist and no manual audio control that really drives me crazy with the VG10. At least these issues have been fully addressed. Oh, and zebras have been added as well.
I will probably buy a VG20 body, as they will be available sans lens (finally). I'll pair it with the new E-mount prime lenses coming out. And, should I get the FS100, I'll have a good supply of lenses.
But between the FS100 and V20, I don't think it's much of a contest. The FS wins out completely. But for the budget, the VG20 can be a useful tool.
Anybody want to buy a gently used VG10 body?
 
maarek said:
AG-20, VS-20, VX-20?

It's the VG-20.. :)

I really like this cam atleast specs wise. It's cheaper and so competes directly with DSLR's priced similarly. And it also shoots RAW. Having that capability has been very important with my 7d usage. We'll see once the reviews hit.
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My bad! I stayed up pretty late to hear the official release and my eye were pretty droopy by the time I posted that.

I couldn't find a spec sheet last night and as of last night it wasn't on Amazon or B & H....
 
The VG10 is a useful part of my kit. And there's no doubt that for some applications it really is a nice tool. There's two issues that would keep me from buying into a VGxx. Those issues are:
1-connecting to the HDMI out of the VG10 disables the on-camera LCD/Viewfinder. This is really a deterrent to using a 3rd party encoder because the monitor needed is bigger and more unwieldly that the camera itself.
2-the tripod socket on the VG10 is woefully underdesigned. The screw socket broke the first week I had the camera, after trying to mount it to a rail system. A little epoxy repaired the failure, but, for a $2k camera, this kind of underdesign is borderline incompetence by the designers.

Sony seems intent on making sure their product lines don't cross, or compete against each other. But, hamstringing a product at this level is really inexcuseable.
 
Have any of you shot with the Sony HVX9? Thats a 14 megapixel cam crammed into a small sensor, with no moire and very very minimal aliasing, almost none. Now, if they took the processing and software scaling into the vg-20 then we might get a bit of a surprise out of this camera. Just my 2 cents...
 
jdv said:
My bad! I stayed up pretty late to hear the official release and my eye were pretty droopy by the time I posted that.

I couldn't find a spec sheet last night and as of last night it wasn't on Amazon or B & H....
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Me too, it was past 2am my time when I wrote that....yikes. Until it is released, we won't know for sure. I am just guessing, that compromises are made to make it a good stills camera. We will see.
 
I would expect any compromises to the still side as it is clearly designed and marketed as a video camera. It is certainly possible to get decent video out of a 16mp chip. Look at the GH2. And several canon video cams stuffed 8mp on 1/3" chips, and the only obvious compromise was in low light performance. The important thing is how fast the chip is read and the processing behind it. All of this is new in this generation, the fact that it is 60p would indicate that the readout is twice as fast as the vg10.

Lets get over the fact that the vg10 sucked, and wait and see if the new one delivers the goods, if it does I will have no problem laying out the cash for one.
 
Nice VG20 promo vid:
http://vimeo.com/28093257

And I wouldn't hold my breath on Nikon ever responding - they've seemed all but oblivious so far.

Canon will respond - eventually - but by the time they do, will anyone (other than those with lots of Canon glass) care?
 
From Sony's VG20 product page:

"Best-ever and ever and ever Full HD video image quality, audio and ergonomics: Sony introduces the Handycam® NEX-VG20E"

Great...now I have to sell FS and upgrade to VG20....
 
TheDingo said:
Which is why I did not consider buying a VG10 at all, but what if the moire/aliasing is properly taken care of with the VG20 ?

The VG20 will be a dead-duck if the moire problems haven't been fixed. ( I am also curious to see how the Sony A77 fares when it comes to moire )
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The moire/aliasing is happening BECAUSE the sensor has way too much resolution (16MP). Also, with such a high resolution, the low-light will be VERY noisy. This is a "repackaged DSLR" as Juan Mendez said about the VG10, the same is true here as well.

On a side note, this is vintage Sony, leave out what is essential to video shooting on the VG10 (i.e. 24p, 180 degree LCD, external scroll wheel, audio levels) and then put them into the next iteration. Just like swivel bases for their HDTV's.
 
jdv said:
Nice VG20 promo vid:
http://vimeo.com/28093257

And I wouldn't hold my breath on Nikon ever responding - they've seemed all but oblivious so far.

Canon will respond - eventually - but by the time they do, will anyone (other than those with lots of Canon glass) care?
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RESPOND to WHAT? What does Canon have to respond to in the VG20 other than it "sucks", a wannabe money grabber.
 
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