From HVX200 to the EX1?

[ChipG]

Brentmeiseter, that was a perfect description of both cams. the ex1 seems to blow out the highlights in a way that is very unpleasant to the eye, but the 200a does eat its fair share of light.

I have both and tend to agree with Brentmeiseter. I've hardly used my ex-1 but enough to confirm what Brentmeiseter said. I bought it to lease to a friend who owns a production co. so after 12 months I'll own it for $600. I do shoot a lot of FAST action adventure reality stuff including tornado / storm chasing and the image isn't there if it's not locked down, we use very fast camera movements. Love the look of it on sticks or even slow pan's, it rocks! P2 sucks for what I do btw, it is a workflow nightmare but the payoff's are better for me and my situation.

 

[PerroneFord]

Perrone,

The hvx comes with a 16 gig card, you'd need to purchase 3 not 4. If your savvy you can pick them up on eBay for $500 each.

The B&H link I referenced yesterday did NOT show an included card. This one does:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...X200A_AG_HVX200A_P2HD_Camcorder.html#includes

I am not talking about buying USED gear off Ebay. I am talking about buying factory hardware new.

 

[ChipG]

It might not have showed it but they come with one. They have for a year and a half now.

I understand you are not talking about buying used gear off eBay which is why I made a point to use your math for aa new card and not the $500 for a used 16 gig card.

 

[PerroneFord]

Using Perrone's math you could buy the hvx (that comes with 1 16 gig p2 card) add another 16 gig card for a total recording time of 34 minutes for $5984 which will allow you to shoot forever if you have a laptop to download. 16 gig card takes 8 min to download, shoot with one while downloading the other. It's not an ideal situation for everyone but it works if you can swing it.

... if you have a laptop to download.

By the same token, the EX1 which comes with a 8GB card (30 minutes) could be augmented with another HOUR of SDHC for another $70. And as long as you have a laptop and time, sure you could download it.

But why are we off on this tangent. The scenario I listed is about what ANY new shooter would expect with a hi-8, DV, HDV, or any other consumer or prosumer camera. A new camera, with NEW media, able to shoot at least an hour. DV tape was an hour, HDV is an hour, hi-8 was an hour, VHS was an hour (or 2). Where is this 30 minutes stuff coming in?


The fact is, the EX1 is cheaper to shoot *per hour* than the HVX. It's cheaper in the field, and it's cheaper at the NLE (no Raylight, no conversion software costs). It's even cheaper to archive the native files because it doen't require as much storage space per minute.

But whatever. I am sure someone can come with a few Ebay/"I only shoot 10 minutes" scenarios to show how shooting the HVX is cheaper.

 

[ChipG]

34 minutes came in because that is the time for 2 16 gig cards, as I said, it is all you need to record forever IF you have a laptop to off load to and can swing it.

 

[DCSensui]

At 1080p30, the DVCPro HD format is one minute per gigabyte.

At 1080p30, the XDCam EX format is three minutes per gigabyte.

In both situations the cards can be reused. So the long-term cost is archival storage for the original camera files. And in that case the HVX's P2 format costs three times more than the EX1's SxS format.

 

[booth]

Brentmeiseter, that was a perfect description of both cams. the ex1 seems to blow out the highlights in a way that is very unpleasant to the eye, but the 200a does eat its fair share of light.

This isn't my experience of the HVX and EX1. The EX1 is more forgiving of blown out highlights. But as suggested, best not to blow highlights out at all if you can avoid it.

I suppose it depends where you look. You can find lots of bad footage out there of each camera. If you choose to look at the bad footage from the EX and the good from the HVX, the HVX will look a lot better.

 

[David_Tanner]

Thanks for the comments everyone.

We decided to sell the HVX and its gone!
I think the most important thing is how it looks once you slap it into your editor. Everything else you just adjust to.
After minor adjustments you can get almost all these camera's looking the same, even Red. I find. Thats all thats important to me, not so much how it got there.

I will say though, the HVX has a serious noise issue. There is no way around it. I can see when its HVX footage a mile off because Im so used to its behavior. Its really bad, even in well lit peices. Unless the whole thing is evenly lit and bland.

:kali: The HVX is not all bad, but it is painfully overated. Its the Halo 3 of HD cameras.

 

[PerroneFord]

At 1080p30, the DVCPro HD format is one minute per gigabyte.

At 1080p30, the XDCam EX format is three minutes per gigabyte.

If this were true then a 16GB card would only hold 48 minutes. My card says 58 minutes, so it's 3.6 minutes per gig. Maybe picky, but that extra 10 minutes could be important to some shooters.

 

[lambchops99]

I've used the HVX and EX1 alot in alot of different situations....EX1 kills the HVX.

I would shoot 720p on the HVX because shooting 1080 wasn't worth twice the data rate...and even 720p was very very noisey.

The EX1 is extremely clean and sharp, is much more user friendly (high res LCD, peaking etc.) and I love using it with my brevis35 kit. Trying to pull 35mm d.o.f on the HVX lcd was ridiculous. On the EX1 with peaking it's 10x easier.

The EX1's footage can be pushed and pulled and zoomed in post and it won't get too noisey, on the HVX if you tried to pull anything out of the shadows it would look like noisey poo! Same with the highlights; on the HVX cine gammas highlights would go like sludgey white where as on the EX1 they roll off much nicer into pure white.

EX1 is the best under $10000 camera out there IMO.

 

[DustBowl]

I have both and tend to agree with Brentmeiseter. I've hardly used my ex-1 but enough to confirm what Brentmeiseter said. I bought it to lease to a friend who owns a production co. so after 12 months I'll own it for $600. I do shoot a lot of FAST action adventure reality stuff including tornado / storm chasing and the image isn't there if it's not locked down, we use very fast camera movements. Love the look of it on sticks or even slow pan's, it rocks! P2 sucks for what I do btw, it is a workflow nightmare but the payoff's are better for me and my situation.

Why are there so few comments like this? I am having a hard time right now between the EX1 and HPX170. I own an HVX200 and am not happy with the noise, low light ability and lousy LCD. These are all issues that the HPX170 addresses (I know the 170 LCD is improved but not as good as the EX1). The only thing scaring me away from the EX1 is the dip in resolution when shooting motion. I shoot mostly docs but do have my fair share of movement in both subject and camera while gathering B-roll for the interviews. Sometimes the B-roll is slow, sometimes it is quick, depends on the content of the story.

One thing the HVX200 and 170 have is a solid image frame to frame. I can't imagine a shooter accepting images that dip in resolution in the middle of a shot. Everything I have read and looked at concerning the EX1 I love, other than the most important issue - long GOP. I know there are options like the Nanoflash but that is another $3500 + media. I would buy an EX1 today if I could use one and see for myself what the images look like under motion but live far away from rental houses and know of no one in my immediate area that owns one. I have to depend on web videos and forums for info.

I have also seen some footage from the 170 that looks really clean and nice. I guess what I am asking here is, are the dips in resolution worth the great image the EX1 puts out? How often do you see dips in res, all the time and you just live with it? Are the 170/200a a good enough improvement that it makes choosing them over an EX1 a closer race?

I can deal with sharpness, color, ergonomics, storage capacity, etc. A solid image is what is important.

 

[PerroneFord]

I would buy an EX1 today if I could use one and see for myself what the images look like under motion but live far away from rental houses and know of no one in my immediate area that owns one. I have to depend on web videos and forums for info.

I need to shoot some tests with the EX1 in the next 2 weeks. What do you want? I can put some raw footage on my FTP server and let you download it.

I have also seen some footage from the 170 that looks really clean and nice. I guess what I am asking here is, are the dips in resolution worth the great image the EX1 puts out? How often do you see dips in res, all the time and you just live with it? Are the 170/200a a good enough improvement that it makes choosing them over an EX1 a closer race?

Yes, the HPX170 can certainly look great. HMC150 also. There are lots of solutions out there. Honestly, the EX1 with a Nanoflash comes out cheaper for me than the HPX170 with P2 cards since I would need at least 4 hours worth at 1080. It's all about needs and workflow. I'm not sure what you mean by "resolution dipping". The camera still records the same resolution.

The HPX170 and EX1 bring different things to the table, and frankly will likely suit different shooters. The EX1 is ALWAYS going to have CMOS issues, and the HPX is ALWAYS going to have less than full-res sensors.. That's just how it is. The SDI port allows both to walk around codec issues so the long GOP and the 1280x1080 just go away.

I can deal with sharpness, color, ergonomics, storage capacity, etc. A solid image is what is important.

Then buy a RED. Or a Viper, or SI2K, or an Arri 435. Because honestly, at this price point there is ALWAYS going to be compromises versus 35mm sensors. There are lens problems, codec compromises, ergonomic issues, latitude compromises, etc. If image is truly king, then move up to where you can get the image, and charge your cients accordingly.

My clients were very pleased with what I was giving them with the DVX and an on-camera shotgun mic. Now they have 1080p HD and 24bit audio. To them, I am "The Discovery Channel" downstairs. To someone trying to put together a feature, I'm the guy with a handycam. Both are very fair assessments.

 

[Sumfun]

Honestly, the EX1 with a Nanoflash comes out cheaper for me than the HPX170 with P2 cards since I would need at least 4 hours worth at 1080.

HPX170 with Firestore is cheaper.

 

[ChipG]

Why are there so few comments like this? I am having a hard time right now between the EX1 and HPX170. I own an HVX200 and am not happy with the noise, low light ability and lousy LCD. These are all issues that the HPX170 addresses (I know the 170 LCD is improved but not as good as the EX1). The only thing scaring me away from the EX1 is the dip in resolution when shooting motion. I shoot mostly docs but do have my fair share of movement in both subject and camera while gathering B-roll for the interviews. Sometimes the B-roll is slow, sometimes it is quick, depends on the content of the story.

One thing the HVX200 and 170 have is a solid image frame to frame. I can't imagine a shooter accepting images that dip in resolution in the middle of a shot. Everything I have read and looked at concerning the EX1 I love, other than the most important issue - long GOP. I know there are options like the Nanoflash but that is another $3500 + media. I would buy an EX1 today if I could use one and see for myself what the images look like under motion but live far away from rental houses and know of no one in my immediate area that owns one. I have to depend on web videos and forums for info.

I have also seen some footage from the 170 that looks really clean and nice. I guess what I am asking here is, are the dips in resolution worth the great image the EX1 puts out? How often do you see dips in res, all the time and you just live with it? Are the 170/200a a good enough improvement that it makes choosing them over an EX1 a closer race?

I can deal with sharpness, color, ergonomics, storage capacity, etc. A solid image is what is important.

Thanks DustBowl,

I'm for the most part netural now on both camera's one will always be better than the other for certain content / situations. Because I shoot 95% of my stuff outside where light is not an issue it's not worth it for me to upgrade to the 200a or 170, not much of an image difference when well lit outside and used hvx's can be bought now for $2,500 or less (no p2 card) the lcd does suck and autofocus performance isnt't very good. If I shot indoor under studio lights or low light I'd upgrade to the 200a or 170. Again, It's just my situation. BTW I use B. Press and not cine gamma.

What kind of docs will you be shooting?

 

[DustBowl]

I need to shoot some tests with the EX1 in the next 2 weeks. What do you want? I can put some raw footage on my FTP server and let you download it.

Sounds great. You may already have some footage as well. I'd like to see anything that could be a challenge to the compression. Fast moving cars, aircraft, whip pans/tilts of the camera, leaves on trees blowing in high wind, etc. PM me a link to your server.

Yes, the HPX170 can certainly look great. HMC150 also. There are lots of solutions out there. Honestly, the EX1 with a Nanoflash comes out cheaper for me than the HPX170 with P2 cards since I would need at least 4 hours worth at 1080.

I would never need that kind of capacity all at once. Two 16GB P2 cards and an external harddrive have been all I ever need. Anything special I would just rent P2s.

I'm not sure what you mean by "resolution dipping". The camera still records the same resolution.

What I mean by dipping is when the codec can't handle high motion and the image shows softness, blockiness, etc.

Then buy a RED. Or a Viper, or SI2K, or an Arri 435.

Way too much horsepower for my needs.

My clients were very pleased with what I was giving them with the DVX and an on-camera shotgun mic. Now they have 1080p HD and 24bit audio. To them, I am "The Discovery Channel" downstairs. To someone trying to put together a feature, I'm the guy with a handycam. Both are very fair assessments.

Agreed. I made a lot of money with my DVX100a. In fact, most of my clients only need SD at this point.

 

[DustBowl]

What kind of docs will you be shooting?

I do a lot of shorts that make their way to PBS here in Oklahoma. they are a mix of human interest and historical. I have shot a few long form docs but most fit in a 30 minute time slot. I am working on one right now that will air in April and be APT'd by the Oklahoma PBS affiliate for national broadcast. Shot 100% with my HVX200.

 

[ChipG]

Character driven content I'd go with the hpx 170, now if your shooting nature (without FAST action situations) I'd go for the ex-1. The ex-1 high res over the hpx doesn't really matter that much for charater driven content / interviews, it matters more for the wow factor like showing detail in a snakes scales and shoots along those lines.

Have you tried to dial out the noise on your hvx? Use B. Press ect. ???