For low budget features - Do you pay your *entire* cast/crew or only some of them?

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

I added a little offer in my last post, it was an edit so not sure if you read it.


That said, I will have to put on my moderator hat and remind everyone that we've danced close to the fine line of being personal a couple times in this thread recently. So as a friendly reminder to everyone keep things friendly, here it is. There is no harm in disagreement, and in my opinion no line has been truly crossed, although spilt blood usually is my limit, so I've got a higher tolerance than some mods... anyway, I just wanted to make the reminder before anything got too far. I think everyone in this conversation, despite different views, are great contributors to the site and you all know the rules, so game on.

 

[Gary Huff]

If your team doesn't care about your film, they won't ever care, no matter how much money you throw at them. If you are making a $10,000 feature film, then you have no money to pay anybody. Your film will manifest purely from your courage and dedication.

Well that's, frankly, b.s. Part of being a "professional" is giving your best shot regardless of what your personal opinion is on the project. However, it's hard to give it your best shot when you're working 15-20+ days, 12 hours a day for peanuts (if that), and have rent due.

There are experiences in life that are truly priceless. Make working on your film one of these experiences. Give your crew that fulfillment.

This is something I've seen mentioned before, but I'd like to know specifics. How do you make it fulfilling for people who are laying power cable? Whose job is to move lights around? Run out to Dominoes and grab the pizza? How are you making it fulfilling for them if they don't personally care about your project, and aren't getting paid much, if at all. It's a nice fantasy that people are excited for your film, but ultimately it's just the writer/director.

Fake passion isn't going to work. Fake courage is worse than no courage. Your crew and your actors will see through it. It's also a disservice to the entire filmmaking community, because when you say "this is a labor of love," you weaken those words for everybody else.

In my experience, these "labors of love" are terrible from the script stage. Cliched, poor characters, a story that doesn't make sense, you name it.

So work on your script. Why do you want to make this film? Is the story filling you with a burning energy? If not, don't bother. Please don't make your movie. Humanity doesn't need any more bullsh*t.

And that's something I haven't heard here yet. It's "I want experience" not, "I really want to see this story come to life." Frankly, if you're not prepared to take an entire script that you've worked hard on, say, "This is absolute s*%t." and toss it into the garbage can, then you're probably not going to come out with something that's actually good.

 

[Gary Huff]

I mean, if the only thing Gary has to say is to jeer - not offer advice, or reasoned critique (like you did), but a one sentence jeer "it'll be so successful" what is the value of that?

Since my advice is "don't bother with a feature" it's the same result either way. And that's almost always my advice because very few people have an honest-to-God feature in their story...most just do it because they think a) they'll sell it for profit, b) they'll have the cred to get a legitimate film c) they just like the red carpet and all the attention that comes with it, even though they paid for that red carpet themselves.

Even so, I answered him in good faith, and he returns with "Oh please".

I quoted from you exactly what I my response was due to. Had nothing to do with your response about your film at all, merely your patronization about what is or isn't thread hijacking.

Zero content, only eye-rolling and sneering. There are always toxic people around any artistic endeavor - people who offer nothing, but jeering and sneering... that is sadly Gary.

So if I jeer and sneer and you waste, let's say, 12-15 days of people's time (or longer) on a film that takes 2-3 years to finalize post work and ends up released to YouTube for a couple of thousand views, does nothing to further any kind of career for you or anyone who works on it, am I still "toxic"? Because I'd take those odds in a heartbeat if we were allowed to bet.

Avoid toxic people.

Yes, if you're a dreamer who doesn't actually bother to find out how things are done, actually work to try to raise the funds necessary to pay a crew to professionally work on making the script that you made far more than one draft of (fixing typos doesn't count), and actually have worked out a business plan to try to at least break even, if not turn a profit, so that you can continue to have a career doing narrative features, then, please, avoid toxic people like me.

 

[Patryk_Rebisz]

This slowly turns into classical on this site duel of two camps: "believe in your dream - just go and do it!" v. "the experience tells me that you didn't think through your dream and most definitely didn't inspire enough people to raise the necessary amount of money."

Because those duels usually ends up nowhere, i'll just add 2 cents of personal experience. I'm doing a feature-length documentary currently - we are almost at the half mark. So far we've spent $40k - $15k of raised money and $25k of our own. We need another $60k (that we'll need to raise as our coffers are empty). So whole film will cost around $100k... That with free gear and cameras (my own), my shooting skills, the editor's skills (my partner) and her gear, with sponsorship by an airline, with sponsorship by a post house, with almost 10 years of experience, with my crew working for favor rates... Reality bites. Shi* costs money.

For your curiosity here is the link:
http://tupeloproductions.com/work_dev_SWL_screengrabs_selects.html

Just a small sample of lessons learned (again, AFTER almost 10 years of experience shooting):
- even when you think you don't need a PA - you need a PA (after your co-director spends time watching the bags instead of looking at the viewfinder and helping you come up with ideas - you bite the bullet and spend $100/d for one)
- even when you think you don't need soundman because you got MixPre, Zoom recorder and NTG2 - you need one (after gusting wind ruins some of the best quotes - after you hire a pro, despite wind twice the power you still get perfect audio)
- even if you pay decent rates and feed your crew really well you will find one malcontent who will ruin it for everyone else (thankfully though only at the end of the shoot as the promise of pay made him keep quite through the shoot)
- your perfectly planed shoot (with large crew and studio) might fall through because of the talent's sickness (but since everyone was going to get paid at some point - re-booking everyone is no problem)
- i have no idea how people were shooting docs before one could shoot with 2 cameras (both interviews and verite)...
- there is no apple-boxes in Ireland... and if you find them you pay through the roof

 

[OldCorpse]

I added a little offer in my last post, it was an edit so not sure if you read it.

Thank you, Ryan, I just saw it. This is of course beyond the call of duty, and I'm honored that you would consider such generosity. For now, I've managed to cover my bases - without wasting anyone's time (anyone involved is getting something out of it, nobody is forced into anything) - but I thank you for your incredibly nice offer.

And this is the best of dvxuser - generous people sharing their expertise, advice, and even, as Ryan just did - offers of physical help - and what keeps me coming back. Personally, I'm not here because of the "encouragement" or "discouragement" - I'm not looking for "believe in your dream - just go and do it!"... because it is my belief that if you need "encouragement" you are not sufficiently motivated to begin with. I mean, "I never pursued my project because nobody encouraged me" is pretty weak sauce. You present your case, and people chime in - productively, by concrete advice, or criticism, or even wholesale rejection as long as reasons are given "the whole project is a bad idea because x, y, z, etc." - that's valuable (not valuable: ha, ha, ha, yeah right, it's sure to be a grand success, lol!); merely enumerating odds of success and based on that saying "I bet it'll fail" is not helpful if the person already knows all about those odds. Let's face it: a $10K feature's odds of success are one in a million or so... how many are shot, and how many Paranormal Activities are there? The lottery offers better odds. We know that. So you better make a $10K feature for reasons other than "financial success", "red carpet", "studio deals". How many threads have we had on dvxuser about "Can you make a good feature for $10K" (there was one not too long ago in the cafe section)? What is left to say about the odds? We. Know. The. Odds. So what is the point of jeering, based exclusively on "well, cause the odds are bad". Concrete advice, substantive criticism, constructive discussions - that's the best of dvxuser; content-free encouragement/discouragement is for the birds; pointless jeering is for toxic clowns.

I like dvxuser because the vast majority of people here are constructive and generous, and that is something to treasure. To the OP: I hope you are getting something out of this, and if you feel this has gone on a huge tangent, my apologies.

 

[Barry_Green]

Okay, I haven't read the thread, but I did see this video and thought it would be interesting, at the least... http://www.upworthy.com/2-monkeys-were-paid-unequally-see-what-happens-next?g=2&c=upw1

 

[Kholi]

In response to OP: We paid most people that worked on our feature, some people refused pay. At least offer, that's what I would do.

\ So you better make a $10K feature for reasons other than "financial success", "red carpet", "studio deals". How many threads have we had on dvxuser about "Can you make a good feature for $10K" (there was one not too long ago in the cafe section)?

$10,000.00 Feature Film : Lay out the rules

=] One of my favorite threads on this forum, I go back to read it every so often after slamming my face into the nearest surface (desk, chair, blackmagic cinema camera screen) on what to do next while still attempting to finish the incomplete right now.

I don't know what to say, really, but I'll blurb briefly:

- Don't hurt anyone while shooting, do not put anyone in danger of being hurt.
- Avoid putting yourself in financial trouble, avoid putting other people in a financial bind as well if possible.
- Steer clear from doing anything insanely illegal. It's actually illegal to snap an iphone photo near a government building, people do it anyway. Don't snap an iPhone photo of someone waving a weapon around near a government building, don't forge documents, so on and so forth.
- Feed people, PIzza is a once or twice kind of last minute deal. A homemade and hearty soup and sandwich combo is MUCH more satisfying than greasy pizza... unless the Pizza is gourmet vegan (daya cheese please) then piz-on. Keep coffee and water, juice as well.
- Be fun, be fast, be firm.
- Finish at all costs, even if it takes more time than you thought it would (because, it will, you have my word if it's worth anything at all)


The rests kind of just deciding how stupid you are, and I don't mean this in a mean way. It takes a pretty stupid person, one that would have knowledge of the difficulty in completing a feature length motion picture of any caliber on a large budget, to attempt to do so with next-to-nothing; it's masochistic. The measure of Stupidity (again, I mean this in the most endearing way) will measure equal amounts to your Tolerance for self inflicted Pain.

If I had the right script, there really isn't anything short of being incapable of finding locations or actors that would stop me.

 

[Gary Huff]

You present your case, and people chime in - productively, by concrete advice, or criticism, or even wholesale rejection as long as reasons are given "the whole project is a bad idea because x, y, z, etc." - that's valuable (not valuable: ha, ha, ha, yeah right, it's sure to be a grand success, lol!);

Well, I'll spell it out for you.

Bad idea 1: Trying to do a feature length (80+ minutes) film on a budget that's not large enough to pay people to work during the lengthy time involved.

Bad idea 2: Trying to do a feature length film that takes place in the entirety of one location.

Bad idea 3: Doing a micro-budget feature length film that takes place in a single location simply for experience.

I've given you reasons, I guess you just needed to see them in list form.

To the OP: I hope you are getting something out of this, and if you feel this has gone on a huge tangent, my apologies.

And now with being patronizing again. The OP has three posts in this thread, the last one made over 22 days ago. Do you really think they care about what's being posted right now?

 

[Drew Ott]

Gary, I can't quickly explain how to make filmmaking fulfilling for crew. My philosophy on the subject seems to come from a completely different conception of reality than yours. Money is not the ultimate motivator.


As far as risk-taking goes, we all know the odds are low. Most movies are unwatchable, regardless of how much money is spent on them. The truth, though, is that nearly every working auteur filmmaker began their careers by making that high-risk under-funded movie that everybody warned against. It's reckless and it's stupid, but it's a decision that you will absolutely -have- to make at some point. You have a 100% chance of -not- making a good movie, if you don't make a movie. There is no rational career path. This entire career is fantasy.

 

[Gary Huff]

Gary, I can't quickly explain how to make filmmaking fulfilling for crew. My philosophy on the subject seems to come from a completely different conception of reality than yours.

Yes, one that doesn't sound like it has much experience. I seriously can't believe you'd put forth the notion that you'd rather have an excited non-professional, then a professional who's not really all into someone's film. That's totally ludicrous. All the enthusiasm in the world is not going to make someone perform better at a technical skill.

The truth, though, is that nearly every working auteur filmmaker began their careers by making that high-risk under-funded movie that everybody warned against.

Actually, it's not. The truth is that a lot of working filmmakers began their career by making a s*%t-ton of short-form content.

 

[Patryk_Rebisz]

Haha, threads like this always blow up like a live grenade.
What's interesting is that in times of DVX100 almost everyone was saying "do it!" Today majority is saying the opposite. This shows how we've matured as community. We've done enough productions to learn life's lessons (or filming lessons of life?) this in turn makes me wonder what kind of mature work will come out of us.

 

[Drew Ott]

Yes, one that doesn't sound like it has much experience. I seriously can't believe you'd put forth the notion that you'd rather have an excited non-professional, then a professional who's not really all into someone's film. That's totally ludicrous. All the enthusiasm in the world is not going to make someone perform better at a technical skill.



Actually, it's not. The truth is that a lot of working filmmakers began their career by making a s*%t-ton of short-form content.

Gary, your arguing is going to spoil a good thread. Please watch your tone.

My personal opinion is that technical skills are cheap. I would rather have motivated non professionals than unmotivated professionals, and I'll stand by that. It's my personal opinion, you do not have to agree.

 

[Gary Huff]

My personal opinion is that technical skills are cheap.

Gear can be, not the knowledge to use it. That you have that attitude says all that I think needs to be said about where you are coming from.

 

[Drew Ott]

Gear can be, not the knowledge to use it. That you have that attitude says all that I think needs to be said about where you are coming from.

We live in the same city. If you want to come over to my apartment and browse my bookshelf full of technical manuals, you're welcome to. I don't know of anybody on the planet who has spent more time than me reading nonfiction books about filmmaking. You're way out of line to keep making assumptions about me. Your pessimism and antagonism are absolutely uncalled for and unproductive to everybody around here.

 

[Patryk_Rebisz]

Gear can be, not the knowledge to use it. That you have that attitude says all that I think needs to be said about where you are coming from.

This one time i agree with Gary. The knowledge is NOT cheap. It took me close to 10 years to accumulate and each day it grows... and i'm sure any technician worth his name is the same.
Moreover, passion + experience is a given when dealing with paid crews. I have no idea where this presumption that paid crews are not passionate and only are doing it for the money comes from. Just because i refuse to work on your project for free doesn't mean that when you pay me i'll just come, do my job, get paid and be done with it. It's actually the opposite. Because you are putting real $ where your mouth is then not only i'll bring every piece of knowledge i've accumulated over the years to make your project i'll actually go out of my way and help you before and after the shoot.

 

[Drew Ott]

I would absolutely rather hire a passionate professional than a passionate amateur. That's a no-brainer, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

But I don't think paid crew are automatically passionate. I've seen otherwise, many times. Passion is defined as, "strong and barely controllable emotion." That's what I'm talking about.

The other word I'm being misunderstood about is "technical." Patryk, in those 10 years you've no doubt gained some technical skill, but moreso I'd hope you've gained wisdom, experience, and artistry. That part is what matters more. Technical skills, as I define them, are 'explicit knowledge' as opposed to 'tacit knowledge.' You can read technical skills, package them as instruction manuals, intellectualize them. All of this is unimportant and cheap in the grand scheme of creating art.

 

[Gary Huff]

You can read technical skills, package them as instruction manuals, intellectualize them.

Ironic.

All of this is unimportant and cheap in the grand scheme of creating art.

First, features are far more of a business than an art. Occasionally the two intersect, and that's great! But there's too much money, and the hiring of temporary employees, to make it primarily about creating art. If you want to create art, paint, sculpt, or write.

I would much rather have the most technically adept, professional crew, who don't really care about my film on an emotional level, as opposed to someone who is really enthusiastic, yet barely knows anything technical. Every single time.

 

[Drew Ott]

Ironic.



First, features are far more of a business than an art. Occasionally the two intersect, and that's great! But there's too much money, and the hiring of temporary employees, to make it primarily about creating art. If you want to create art, paint, sculpt, or write.

I would much rather have the most technically adept, professional crew, who don't really care about my film on an emotional level, as opposed to someone who is really enthusiastic, yet barely knows anything technical. Every single time.

There's no irony.

---

I guess this is why we've been disagreeing. Like I said before, we come from two different philosophies. To me, filmmaking is -entirely- about the art. The business part of filmmaking takes a sideline role when I'm in charge. I do not value or respect money. It is a pesky, small necessity.

So we have different goals. If my goal were financial success, I would probably agree with everything you said.

 

[Boon]

Ironic.



First, features are far more of a business than an art. Occasionally the two intersect, and that's great! But there's too much money, and the hiring of temporary employees, to make it primarily about creating art. If you want to create art, paint, sculpt, or write.

painting, sculpting and writing, isn't what we do in filmmaking?
The process of filmmaking is both art and industry.

 

[Gary Huff]

painting, sculpting and writing, isn't what we do in filmmaking?
The process of filmmaking is both art and industry.

You can make a feature film entirely by yourself?