Flicker Horror!!!

P

Pepeds

Member
Hey guys,

I recently received my EX1 from B&HPhotovideo, and I've been awfully surprised with a very evident defect of the camera in the progressive modes. Basically it takes beautiful images when things are still, but as soon as you pan, the image gets into an unbearable flicker that makes the audience dizzy after 5 seconds, and make them rub their eyes like there's something wrong with them. The defect is specially evident in strong vertical lines, or strong edges, but it's also obvious in low contrast subjects.

I have seen a couple of threads about it and I've seen people dismissing the issue, but for me, it is so crass that it takes away any advantage of the camera. I am a film student and I bought it shot a short film to eventually blow up to 35mm, so I am not interested in the interlaced mode (where the defect is still present but almost imperceptible).

Before you ask, yes, I tried all possible settings, all possible progressive framerates and modes, all possible picture profiles, no picture profile, gammas, matrixes, no knee, manual, auto knee, steadyshot on/off, ND on/off, auto/manual focus, auto/manual iris, auto/manual zoom, macro on/off, white balance, gain, no gain, negative gain, lots of gain, 720, 1080, LCD monitor, Plasma monitor, Cathode tube monitor, a lot of detail, detail off, negative detail, skin tone detail on/off, a lot, middle, negative, a lot of negative skin detail, black up, down, low key sat on/off, and OF COURSE: shutter off/on, angle 180, 90, 45, 22.5, 11,25, speed 1/32, 1/48, 1/60, 1/100, 1/125, 1/250... overexpose, underexpose, overcrank, undercrank... should I keep going???...

In every possible setting the problem remains, it is most awful in 24p but remains unwatchable in 30p... I thought I was crazy, so I showed it to my mother, sister, father, each one separately, and after a long enough pan, they all got dizzy, and felt there was something fundamentally wrong in the image...

Here are a couple of examples, first a test with a text (I know it's underexposed) it has: shutter off, shutter 1/48, and shutter 1/96

http://download.yousendit.com/EDA35BBD753A1428


The next test is a real life image, shot at 1080/24p, shutter 180°, ND1 on, picture profile off, iris 4.

http://download.yousendit.com/DD9577D66BA56EA8

Both clips are downconverted in Vegas 8 to 720/24p WMV, and the defect is still very obvious (it is worse in 1080p, but my connection is too slow to upload those clips). ,

First a couple of statements

1- No, the flicker is not a result of the WMV compression
2- yes, I can see the flicker in the camera LCD too.
3- No, 24p images are not supposed to look like that, I've shot film a couple of times and I've shot with the HVX-200 and it definitely doesn't look at all like this, this EX1 looks like my $300 Digital8 handycam trying to shoot progressive
4- Yes I'm very much pissed off at Sony 'cause I will be shooting in 1 week and I don't have time to change cameras or get it repaired, and frankly this image is a not worth of its price, I don't care about the nice gammas, I don't care about the great resolution, I don't care about the wonderful LCD, I don't care about how many laboratory tests it succeeded at, I don't even care about backfocus and vigneting issues, all I want is a decent progressive image that doesn't make my audience want to puke.


My questions:

1- Am I crazy???, or you also think the motion in this images is absolutely unacceptable??? (I have worse ones too if you want to see!!!)
2- Is it just my EX1 or all of your cameras display the same issue???, I mean, yes, Philip Bloom images are wonderful, but how many times has he used the camera in the hand or make a reasonable pan that would display the same effect???, I really couldnt tell if his camera has the same issue!!!. Come on guys, I know we invested $6500+ in this girl, but let's be critical, I really need to know your honest opinion on this issue, have you seen it in yours?, or I just got a defective unit???. Actually I would prefer to have received a defective unit, at least I would have the chance to get it replaced one day for a working camera ad not a $6.500 paperweight, even though I will anyway have to rent a good old HVX-200 for my short film
3- Is there any chance that in the hidden settings is something that can help me???, something that is off???, I don't dare to mess around with it, as I've heard you can damage your camera!!!, does anybody know for real what could it be???
4- Can somebody please post some panning tests???, we have mostly seen static images where only the subject moves, and it looks beautiful!, but as soon as you move it (specially at certain not so quick, not so fast pace) it looks like poo!!!... can you at least make the test in your own units and report?, one idea could be to place a written paper in front of the lens, macro on, focus on it and slowly take it from one side to the other, now tell me if you feel like there is something wrong with your eyes, it is so crass that you can see in on the LCD already.
5- Does anybody know what to do???, should I just drop myself from a bridge???, HELP!!!

Falling into despair!!!
 
Holy **** thats sharp......


That my boy is standard issue, 24p strobing.

You are panning WAAAAAAAAAAAAAy to fast.

Objects should take 7 seconds to cross the screen. Not 2.
 
This is called "strobing" and is something that animators have been grappling with for a century.

I used to shoot credit rolls on an animation stand (yes, on 35mm film) and it was essential to choose the typeface and the scroll speed to prevent this very phenomenon. And do numerous tests (and project them).

When I've shot table top photography closeups of books (also on 35mm) we've had to be very conscious of the speeds as well - I remember one project we ha to reshoot several times for that reason - black text on white is very suceptable to strobing.

This has NOTHING to do with the camera (in this case), but more to do with the speed of movement and the thickness of the lines perpendicular to the direction of movement (and the shutter angle). If the lines are too thin such that there is not continuity from frame to frame the viewer perceives the strobing rather than continuous movement.

Try slower movement or 60p and you'll see that the EX1 can handle panning without strobing.

Also - shutter angle between 180° and 360° reduces the effect, by my perception. Try 1/32 at 24p for what I think is the most pleasing effect.
 
Come on guys!!!, yes, I'm familiar with the flicker effect in animation, and again: this is not it!!!, and yes, I'm panning fast, but not really that fast. Have you seen "The Office???", it is shot in 24p with another Sony CineAlta. Have you seen how fast they pan??? Have you ever seen something remotely similar to this:

http://download.yousendit.com/5EA5126E6035157A

it is a raw clip, where I pan a little bit faster, and where you see the extent of uselessness of this clips. You don't give me much hope!!!, so it's not only my unit???, is the whole series???... any one else has an opinion???... I'll be damned!!!...

If that turns out to be true, I will exchange any of you guys a brand new EX1 for a brand new HVX-200 any of these days!!!, and you don't even have to give me any money, I'll be happy just to have a decent progressive picture!!!, any one up to the switch???...
 
Here's the solution, sell your camera!
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the motion, if you don't like it, why own it?

And YES "come on", 24P has motion judder when panning fast. It's only 24 FPS.

If you "really" own the EX1, YOU could easily sell online for what you can buy a new HVX200. So why don't you?
 
I have to agree. What you see is normal.
In the second shot you are panning too fast and you're also not following anything- if you were it would not make you dizzy.
I find the 24p from Panasonic to be the most pleasing.
Canon and Sony tend to have more of a defined stutter- that's me- most think all 24p look the same.
Get the HVX- or wait for the 170- you'll be happy.
 
What do you mean if i "really" own the EX1???... You think I work for Panasonic or something like that???... I could ask you the same, do you work for Sony or something like that???

I'm just an indy filmmaker trying to get the job done. I don't have time to sell my camera online and get a HVX-200 'cause I start shooting in a week and a half. Did you check my clips?, I really hope there is just something wrong with my unit, I was hoping that some hidden setting would be somehow off, because the motion truly looks unacceptable to me, and I've seen a lot of 24p footage. If it looks fine to you, then good for you.

I think I'm gonna have to shoot 1080/60i and later deinterlace to get 24p I am just testing to see the results, but like I told you, maybe you haven't noticed it, but the flickering is still present in the interlaced modes, except very subtle, but still there. I was thinking it is maybe a characteristic of the CMOS chips???, another particularity of the rolling shutter???... I have to check more RED One footage where they move the camera a lot.

Could somebody post a pan on a high contrast subject to compare it with mine?, maybe there is truly something wrong with mine and we're discussing about nothing!!!...

I understand there is a particular sensibility towards your newly purchased equipment, but I really think there should be a space to discuss shortcomings, this is a great interlaced camera, but maybe it is not for electronic cinema work!, that could well be it, it doesnt has to be perfect for every use!...

Okay, I hope more people post their opinions on the issue, like I said, maybe I'm just crazy!!!... I certainly hope so!!!
 
Try this,
Go grab and HVX from a friend or another "true" 24P camera and perform the SAME test with both cameras side by side. A while back there was a side by side comparison of the EX1 and HVX200 of someone on a skateboard and the motion was the same.
 
There's nothing wrong with your camera. Shoot a test of a typical scene in your indy film and I think you will be pleased.


(Unless most of the film involves fast pans across handwritten notes)
 
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I think some folk are a bit sensitive to the motion the EX has, that seems a little different to some folk, i thought it was, aesthetically it didnt seem right, other folks think its nuts and don't notice anything...
 
Here's a test to prove that it's not the camera. Since you're a film student, shoot something in film with the same speed of panning and you'll see that it's a 24 fps thing. There's nothing wrong with your camera. It's just the way progressive is. I bet if you play this on a progressive monitor, it's not this bad.

And yes, you are panning TOO fast. That's the problem with video people trying to shoot film. You don't see this strobing on video because you are shooting interlaced played back at interlaced, although there are artifacts that you may not see because you are used to it.

You'll see strobing like this even on Hollywood films. One good example I can think of on top of my head is in Transformers. The scene where Sam Witwicky and his friend is at the park and they had a fight with the jocks. Look at the panny there. The flicker is horrible, even worse than your clip. This is an issue that every cinematographer knows about and are doing their best to avoid it when they are shooting. But there will be shots that the director want that you can't avoid.

You should do more research on 24p before you start complaining about it.


Kak Lee
www.myspace.com/kaklee
 
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I agree. Your camera is fine.
I heard that the motion blur of progressive video disappears when its blown up to 35mm for theatres. Maybe to do with the fact there is a shutter in cinema projectors? It smooths it out.?
BTW, if your film is not destined for blow up to 35 I really recommend 720 60p. I found it way smoother.
 
im own a hvx200 and i'm very disapointed with judder too , my 24p footage flicks too much that i lost a job because i needed to discard all the footage,...flicks too much that is crap.

before i decided to buy this camera i watched pratically all finished fotage here in this forum , and did not see any footage flicking. nothing...all nice movements...fast movements , cars , skateboardings , snowboard , people runiing , every kind of movements....and did see nothing ike my camera is doing...terrible...even in 30p it flicks.......

i did some tests....slower movements , no mnovements...people moving their arms just for take a glass of water are terrible.....flicks too much....
 
My 2 cents...

My 2 cents...

Having been a Dp of 35mm, 16mm and many assorted video/digital cameras on features, commercials, and more I am very familiar with 24p issues...

My favorite setting on digital cameras is a shutter of 1/32 - I find that 1/24 is too "swishy" and the technically correct 1/48 is too juddery. 1/32 or thereabouts depending on the scene seems a nice compromise.

A note: When shooting green screen I tend to push back to 1/48 for cleaner edges with less motion blur. Blur can always be added back in post with a program such as re:vision motion blur for after effects.

Hope this helps someone out there...
 
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You need to change shutter speed. For more solid imagery (sharper) while in movement, try a shuter speed of 48, 60 or above. If you want softer, but less stroby, put the shutter all the way down to 24.

EDIT- However, the limited time I had with a EX1 In Tokyo Japan ( which was 5 minutes), the motion felt different from my HVX. Haven't messed with the shutter then, but supposedly all cameras come standard with shutter OFF (which means 24 shutter), so it was understandable that the footage looked odd when panning. Have to really try it myself. It is not a camera for my consideration, seeing the flicker problems people are getting in flourescent lights- I work and live in a flourescent heavy city.
 
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Moldcad, you shot that at 25p - it looks to me that you didn't convert to 24p before uploading to Vimeo. Vimeo player apparently only plays 24p so this will add even more stutter when playing on Vimeo.com.
 
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