FS7: First shoot with the FS7

My information comes directly from having my hands on the actual camera. I hope that is a good enough source for you. If you reset the camera. . . put it in Cine EI mode . . . make sure the Gain/ISO switch is in the "L" position . . . and then look at the display in the viewfinder, what does it say? The answer is "EI 800". Now, I can't say whether the camera is actually ISO 800 sensitive or not (most Sony cameras cannot be trusted that the displayed ISO is correct) unless I put in on my charts and rate it myself, but 800 is what the camera says it is, and for the time being I'll go along with that. ISO 2000 is the base in STD 5 (the camera's default gamma mode) and that's why you see that number thrown around, but that's not what we're talking about here. We are talking about Cine EI. Where does Alister get his information?
 
Doug Jensen said:
My information comes directly from having my hands on the actual camera. I hope that is a good enough source for you. If you reset the camera. . . put it in Cine EI mode . . . make sure the Gain/ISO switch is in the "L" position . . . and then look at the display in the viewfinder, what does it say? The answer is "EI 800". Now, I can't say whether the camera is actually ISO 800 sensitive or not (most Sony cameras cannot be trusted that the displayed ISO is correct) unless I put in on my charts and rate it myself, but 800 is what the camera says it is, and for the time being I'll go along with that. ISO 2000 is the base in STD 5 (the camera's default gamma mode) and that's why you see that number thrown around, but that's not what we're talking about here. We are talking about Cine EI. Where does Alister get his information?
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What EI values are assigned by default? I have my camera all set up so I don't want to reset it. For some reason I remember 2000 being "M", so I assumed default Cine EI L/M/H values were "slightly below base"/"base"/"slightly above base".

It's also worth noting that in EI mode, we aren't talking about Gain or ISO, so the lowest value we are allowed to set is no longer "base". So just because EI 800 was default "L", doesn't mean that is base. You can set it down to EI 500. But all these are is a visual representation of what that exposure value would look like while you're using a LUT. With the LUT off, it always looks like ISO 2000.
 
The Sony FS7 and the F5 are rated ISO 2000,

When in Cine EI mode, the camera records with native ISO 2000. Whatever you dial in with the switch or menu doesn't affect your
recordings but changes the brightness of the display...
 
Edited: See my post below to correct the post I made here which was wrong information.
 
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If the FS7 is like my F3 in EI mode ISO stays at native and the gain switch only make the display and SDI output brighter. So if the camera indicates EI800 instead of ISO800 it would be safe to assume that this is only the exposure index and not the actual ISO recorded.
 
FS7 has the exact same sensor in the F5. Which is rated for natively 2000 ISO, this is where it will deliver the best image and highest exposure latitude, going lower or higher compromises that (for other major benefits like much less noise) . In real shooting, the cameras work great from 500 up to 10.000. Just shoot and make art rather than argue what's the "native" ISO. There's no official answer in the manual so If one is in doubt he should conduct a DR and noise test to see what is the best ISO value, that's the only way to go.
 
Okay, I have to admit that I was wrong to assume the FS7 worked the same way as the F55. I have fallen into the trap that I knew was probobaly there. The FS7 operates differently than the F55 in several ways, and this is one of them, so much of what I have posted above is incorrect. I apologize.

I just put the FS7 on the charts and I would rate it very close to ISO 2000 in Cine EI. So, those of you who have been saying that are correct.

However, that does not change the fact that Sony has chosen to display "EI 800" for some reason in the viewfinder, which I assumed was correct. That number means nothing. On the F55, the camera displays "EI 1250" in Cine EI because that is the native ISO of that camera and should be used to base your exposure on. So I cannot explain why the FS7 would show "EI 800" when the native ISO is 2000. It should display "EI 2000" with the default settings. I got fooled by making assumptions and should have done my own rating sooner. Sorry.
 
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Remember

1) Sony world - its totally oddball

2) ISO is 'complex' or 'a choice' in the world of luts and post and log et al.

For example a 10stop 800 ISO camera with grey at 50% would have 5 stops of headroom and 5 stops of shadow.

or you could consider it 1600 ISO, expose your greys lower and get 4 stops of shadow and 6 stops of headroom.

without changing anything in camera, just your post lut/look

AFAIK cineEI is meant for exposing raw where lowering the ei (640min on F5?) would give one the cleanest file, with the least headroom, higher EI values giving more noise and headroom - just different ways of treating the same sensor data? Considering log is far from linear and the curve has 'sweet spots' (the highlights being very compressed and unsweet) EI should really be a no go for Slog?

S
 
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CineEI is meant working in the best range of the sensor whilst being able to
see and expose according to your display, which can be rated at different ISOs.
 
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Doug Jensen said:
However, that does not change the fact that Sony has chosen to display "EI 800" for some reason in the viewfinder, which I assumed was correct.
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I wonder if its like the PMW-700 and its applying negative gain when set to L? M is native (2000) and H is what gain you set it. All of this is for monitor only and original files are exposed at 2000.

I'm only guessing here.
 
RatLabProductions said:
I wonder if its like the PMW-700 and its applying negative gain when set to L? M is native (2000) and H is what gain you set it. All of this is for monitor only and original files are exposed at 2000.

I'm only guessing here.
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That was what I was alluding to in my post earlier, in a much more wordy way, haha.

But I can see how it would be misleading if you have the MLUT shut off, because all L/M/H settings look the same. So if you enabled Cine EI, set your level to "L", and saw "EI 800", then proceeded to see no exposure change as you bumped it up to "M" and "H", you would assume that 800 is the base ISO.
 
Sony implemented cineEI for it's SLog cameras - for a reason.

CineEI is not about having the lowest noise/cleanest file. CineEI is for
using the biggest DR of the sensor. It's a little bit like working with film.
You have a rated ISO, where the sensor/film stock performs best.

Now, it's up to you to expose:
- overexpose and you'll get cleaner files with less headroom
- underexpose and you'll have more headroom and more noise

For different exposure, Sony gives you the ability to darken/lighten your display
as if you were shooting at a different ISO. But you're not really.
It works better on RAW - yess. All the BM cameras work this way. The sensor of
the BMCC/BMPCC are rated ISO 800 no matter what you dial in.

Sony just makes it to appear very complicated. One must understand the whole
"philosophy" behind cineEI to work/expose properly.

Alister Chapman likes to expose on ISO800 to lower the noise floor, but never goes
under ISO800. You can also expose on any other ISO, but be aware what happens with
your footage.

FYI: SLog3 does not have a higher noise floor than SLog2. It's just different gammas/gains
for the same sensor, which always has the same noise floor.
It looks like it has more noise apparent - but only if the footage is not delogged.
After delogging SLog2 and SLog3 look very, very similar. Slog2 has a greater tonality in the highlights,
but not more DR! SLog3 has more tonality in the shadows.
 
One of the standard ways to shoot with the Red Epic/Scarlet when shooting raw was to be what at first glance seems a bit counter-intuitive...

Shoot at 800iso in bright light or daylight and shoot at 320 for interiors or when it is darker. It's all raw and so iso can be adjusted later but the visual shorthand as you glance at a monitor means you'll be protecting your highlights more in bright light because visually they will clip sooner and you are less likely to underexpose and get noisy shadows in interiors with the camera rated lower.

It seems like a variation on that theme might be in order for FS7 shooting in Cine EI
 
So, Doug Jensen . . . How's that FS7 instructional video coming along? Likely to be available on your website this February? :)

Doug Jensen said:
That is the hallmark of all my training videos and books! I spend much more time on the why, why not, what if, than on "push this button". Nobody ever accused me of keeping my opinions to myself.
Click to expand...
 
Ken Hull said:
So, Doug Jensen . . . How's that FS7 instructional video coming along? Likely to be available on your website this February? :)
Click to expand...

Hi Ken,

It is finally almost completed and with a little luck it will be online this week. I've been working pretty much non-stop on it since November and it has proven to be the hardest training video I've ever tackled.

6 hours. 26 chapters.

It's hard to believe I've been working on it since November. I'd be embarrassed to admit how many hours I've put into it. If I had known what I was in for I wouldn't have started, but now it is way too late to quit. I have long since past the point where I could ever hope for it to have been worth my time. I can say without any reservations that the FS7 is multiple times more difficult to figure out and explain than the F5/55. On-demand streaming will be first up, and then (maybe) a DVD version later in the month. 6 hours on DVD is tough to have replicated and packaged, plus standard definition looks so awful I don't really want to downconvert it. I wish Blu-ray was an option.

Thanks for asking.



CHAPTER LIST:

INTRODUCTION and OVERVIEW
TWO CAMERAS IN ONE
THE MENU SYSTEM
THE USER MENU
VF DISPLAYS and MARKERS
RECORDING FORMATS
MEMORY CARDS
CLIP NAMING
ASSIGN BUTTONS
EXPOSURE
FOCUS
WHITE BALANCE
AUDIO
CUSTOM SHOOTING MODE and PAINT MENUS
CUSTOM SCENE FILES
CINE EI SHOOTING MODE
MLUTS and LOOK PROFILES
LENSES
ALL FILES and OTHER DATA FILES
VIDEO OUTPUT and MONITORING
TIMECODE and SYSTEM MENUS
S&Q MOTION
TIME-LAPSE and PICTURE CACHE
VIDEO PLAYBACK
WI-FI REMOTE CONTROL
INGEST and ARCHIVING
 
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