First footage from the RED DRAGON released

Kholi said:
Certainly not the consensus around here, in LA, as far as the camera and clipping, along with color goes. It's not about the fact that things clip (why anyone would think otherwise is weird), it's definitely about how ugly RED footage clips. That is common knowledge... to read people refuting that it isn't is really strange to me.

I've never ONCE heard anyone say "boy this footage has great highlight roll off" out of the box, and certainly not "Those RED cameras have great color".

But then again I spend most of my time in headphones so PERHAPS I'm just not listening.
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Obviously you need more time working with RED on set and in post. Before you state some comments as fact. The color issue was a problem during the m sensor days. And with the newest color science of redcolor3 and redgamma3 color issues is no longer a problem. But I guess everyone on set of elysium, the hobbit, Spider-Man, great gatsby, etc were all disappointed to get stuck with a RED. Clipping is not a big issue with the RED, highlights always preformed well. But what do I know, the only cameras I work with 90% of the time is my epic or Alexa.
 
Joncarr said:
Obviously you need more time working with RED on set and in post. Before you state some comments as fact. The color issue was a problem during the m sensor days. And with the newest color science of redcolor3 and redgamma3 color issues is no longer a problem. But I guess everyone on set of elysium, the hobbit, Spider-Man, great gatsby, etc were all disappointed to get stuck with a RED. Clipping is not a big issue with the RED, highlights always preformed well. But what do I know, the only cameras I work with 90% of the time is my epic or Alexa.
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Already regretting posting anything in the thread, more to regret with this post.

This always degenerates into someone telling someone else:

1. Work with the camera more and/or you don't work with it enough.
2. Calling forth credentials as fact
3. Calling forth examples of major motion pictures
4. Someone saying "everything camera is good enough!" which isn't very enlightening at all.

Not necessarily in that order.

Not a single one of these actually makes for solid conversation, but here's a quote from my statement with a very important piece in bold, in case it was missed on the first read through:

Kholi said:
I have yet to meet a working, amateur, aspiring, whatever DP that doesn't steer clear of highlights when shooting RED. It's not even that people avoid them, people are TERRIFIED of highlights. This isn't JUST with RED, either: digital has birthed a fear of highs that's made for some really... uhhh... interesting looks for the past number of years. Me thinks Alexa has become so popular (aside from the obvious factors) because you don't have to fear one of the aspects of an image what makes it feel full.
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I suppose I only have to ask... if the color was fixed with RC3/RG3, and the highlights are a non-issue...

Why do so many people see them as issues? Why does RED Color Science need to advance further? Why did it need to be stated that the Dragon footage was graded using "old" color science if it were widely accepted that the color is good?

I'm certainly not the only person pointing to them.

And lastly, why is it wrong to have an opinion that things could be better? I'm sure the engineers and Graeme have been in touch with the customers that they feel they can take opinions and thoughts from, to improve their camera. It's a good thing that they're intelligent enough to realize they can improve on these things, and that they take the feedback of users to heart even if it doesn't seem like it, otherwise RC3/RG3 would be the end of it.

Bet not many RED owners would be enthusiastic about that.
 
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Joncarr said:
Obviously you need more time working with RED on set and in post. Before you state some comments as fact. The color issue was a problem during the m sensor days. And with the newest color science of redcolor3 and redgamma3 color issues is no longer a problem. But I guess everyone on set of elysium, the hobbit, Spider-Man, great gatsby, etc were all disappointed to get stuck with a RED. Clipping is not a big issue with the RED, highlights always preformed well. But what do I know, the only cameras I work with 90% of the time is my epic or Alexa.
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Everyone sees what they see.

This must be said - they are all good cameras. I do love the Alexa.
 
Kholi said:
I have yet to meet a working, amateur, aspiring, whatever DP that doesn't steer clear of highlights when shooting RED. It's not even that people avoid them, people are TERRIFIED of highlights. This isn't JUST with RED, either: digital has birthed a fear of highs that's made for some really... uhhh... interesting looks for the past number of years. Me thinks Alexa has become so popular (aside from the obvious factors) because you don't have to fear one of the aspects of an image what makes it feel full.
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And that's exactly why the Alexa has a built in diffusion filter...both the After Earth and Oblivion DPs used similar diffusion filters to get the highlights they wanted on the F65.

EDIT: Btw, this is the first I remember people talking about the Alexa having a built in diffusion filter, back in 2011: http://www.gunleik.com/tests/alexmx/RED1_MX_and_Arri_Alexa/Full_latitude_2.html
 
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In psychology this is known as Congitive dissonance. This is also used a lot to study Consumer Behaviour and was taught to us in MBA days, some 15 years back.

A lot of advertising (and these days forum posts by camera manufacturers) is directed towards buyers to make them feel good about their purchase, to reinforce their belief of having made a good decision of buying a product.

People have a bias to seek consonance between their expectations and reality. So they try for dissonance reduction and one of the methods is to attribute less importance to information which conflicts with their perceived belief of reality or expectation. So anyone talking negative against a camera, will bring out a few comments to bash the poster, question his credibility etc.

Kholi said:
Already regretting posting anything in the thread, more to regret with this post.

This always degenerates into someone telling someone else:

1. Work with the camera more and/or you don't work with it enough.
2. Calling forth credentials as fact
3. Calling forth examples of major motion pictures
4. Someone saying "everything camera is good enough!" which isn't very enlightening at all.

Not necessarily in that order.

Not a single one of these actually makes for solid conversation, but here's a quote from my statement with a very important piece in bold, in case it was missed on the first read through:



I suppose I only have to ask... if the color was fixed with RC3/RG3, and the highlights are a non-issue...

Why do so many people see them as issues? Why does RED Color Science need to advance further? Why did it need to be stated that the Dragon footage was graded using "old" color science if it were widely accepted that the color is good?

I'm certainly not the only person pointing to them.

And lastly, why is it wrong to have an opinion that things could be better? I'm sure the engineers and Graeme have been in touch with the customers that they feel they can take opinions and thoughts from, to improve their camera. It's a good thing that they're intelligent enough to realize they can improve on these things, and that they take the feedback of users to heart even if it doesn't seem like it, otherwise RC3/RG3 would be the end of it.

Bet not many RED owners would be enthusiastic about that.
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Kholi said:
Already regretting posting anything in the thread, more to regret with this post.

This always degenerates into someone telling someone else:

1. Work with the camera more and/or you don't work with it enough.
2. Calling forth credentials as fact
3. Calling forth examples of major motion pictures
4. Someone saying "everything camera is good enough!" which isn't very enlightening at all.

Not necessarily in that order.

Not a single one of these actually makes for solid conversation,
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Can we somehow make this required reading.
 
The only people I hear jumping up and down about shooting Red are producers and Red owners. That being said, it absolutely dominates a good chunk of the industry. If you have a budget but can't afford an Alexa, I'd bet that 8-9 out of 10 times you'll wind up shooting either an MX, a Scarlet, or an Epic. The decision is usually based on a variety of factors like affordability, workflow familiarity, resolution, dynamic range, size and weight, name-recognition (unfortunately), and ultimately the producer's preconceived notions. The cameras definitely have their problems, like "inelegant" clipping, less pleasing color performance than some of the alternatives on the market, general bugginess (I can't remember the last shoot with any Red camera that didn't require at least a couple of reboots for bizarre image issues), and a definite identifiable look that some love and some are less than crazy about.

I'm at a point in my career where it makes sense to look at purchasing a bigger camera package. Personally, I'd be most interested in looking at the F5/F55, but I don't want to fight an uphill battle on every job to get the production to rent my kit. I know that most of the people I work for are going to push for Red (or Alexa if they have the pockets). Even though it has issues and (in my opinion) doesn't lead the class in overall image quality, it still produces an excellent image and is very easy to work with. I'd be insane to purchase anything other than Red as a business decision (still waiting to see what the public perception of the 4k BMCC is), even factoring in the (unbelievably short-sighted) stupid-low rental rates in LA, driven down by scores of non-working owner/operators who had money to burn and no long-term plan. (I refuse to rent from those people, and you should too!)

I think many of us will be spending a lot of time with Dragon, whether we buy into the system or not, and I'm pretty thrilled at the bump in resolution and a few extra stops of dynamic range. If highlights are better handled and the color is better, then color me excited. I personally can't stand the corporate culture over at Red, what with all of the arrogance and grandstanding, but even when they don't deliver on promises to the letter they still have a track record of putting their money where their mouth is. They shook up the industry in a big way and have done quite a bit to push the rate of technological advance and the ever shrinking price of cinema gear.
 
James0b57 said:
And some CGI guys. (but your other two cover many types over shooters and productions, so nuff said)
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A lot of CGI guys would choose the Epic over an Alexa, especially if the Alexa is only shooting prores. And CGI guys can be very, very smart.
 
mail4joeg said:
In other news, the Dragon sensor does look pretty good.

(don't hurt me)
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For all of the nitpicking and complaints, I really don't see how anyone could look at that demo reel and claim that the dragon doesn't look pretty damn good. No matter how you feel about Red, this thing is a resolution and DR monster.
 
stefancolson said:
For all of the nitpicking and complaints, I really don't see how anyone could look at that demo reel and claim that the dragon doesn't look pretty damn good. No matter how you feel about Red, this thing is a resolution and DR monster.
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+1. I'm not the biggest fan of RED as a cult, but this image looks great.
 
A director friend of mine just posted this on his facebook about the Dragon: "It's much better than Alexa"
 
maarek said:
A director friend of mine just posted this on his facebook about the Dragon: "It's much better than Alexa"
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Well, it sort of would be a shame if it wasn't better considering the "Alexa" is now 3 years old. After all, digital sensors and techonology more or less doubles in power every 18 months (but according to me, closer to every 36 months = 3 years). The question is how the new 4K Alexas will hold up.
 
Thats the compression ratio. Up till now 6:1 and lower was considered as low as you go to get pristine imagery.

Seems the new sensor is even cleaner so up to 17:1 looks as good as the old 6:1 looked, which means everyone wont have to go buy new media to shoot 6k.
 
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