First footage from the RED DRAGON released

Fluoro said:
If this is all it takes to make a Red's image look as pleasing as an Alexa why is this the first time I've heard about it? If that was true then wouldn't it be common knowledge and come up in nearly every debate about Alexa versus Red?
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You'd be surprised how undertrained many DPs are. I've met some who really don't deserve to be working.
 
Joncarr said:
What makes the Alexa look more like "film" is that there is a 1/4 low contast filter on the OLPF besides the IR filter on it. Putting a low contrast filter makes the highlights bloom instead of clip and makes you think your getting more DR then what the camera can actually do by itself. If you put a 1/4 low contrast filter on the RED, your match a ALEXA very well. Resolution is a different story. Jim Jarred is also toying with the idea of making it a option with dragon for people if you want a 1/4 low contrast filter on the OLPF just like the ALEXA comes standard.
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So that's what it is... I've been insisting for the past several months that Alexa has something "in-camera" that was being used to manage the highlights. At first I thought it must have been something on the electronic side, almost like a limiter circuit would do for audio, but atlas it seems like all along all it might be is a low contrast filter.

That is real interesting. I have never heard this before myself.
 
Pretty common knowledge I thought; the Alexa has a filter permanently mounted in front of the sensor to give it more film-like halation characteristics.

The consensus seems to be something like a 1/4 Hollywood Black Magic filter to match it.

Personally I use vintage stills lenses instead - my whole sack of lenses cost less than a decent Schneider filter ;-)

But it definitely helps to have something to "take the digital edge" off the highlights. I'd be quite tempted to specify that option if and when I upgrade from Mx-Scarlet to Dragon.

Cheers, Hywel.
 
Fluoro said:
If this is all it takes to make a Red's image look as pleasing as an Alexa why is this the first time I've heard about it? If that was true then wouldn't it be common knowledge and come up in nearly every debate about Alexa versus Red?
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Unless you take apart a RED, ALEXA, SONY and examine the OLPF differences of each camera. Then you would need to go off tests with different filters and see what filtration makes X camera match with Y camera. No camera company is gonna state what's on their OLPF besides IR filtration, its part of their secret sauce. And most companies won't state how much IR filtration is on the OLPF. The best thing for you is to test for yourself and see what you can come up with.
 
stefancolson said:
A 1/4 Schneider Hollywood Black Magic (combo classic soft/black frost) gives a similar feel.
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I use the 1/2 classic black soft, which is very similar to the Hollywood black magic. It's usually my default filter with any modern lens I use or rent for a job.
 
Samuel H said:
I will definitely test myself: my next buy is a light meter (probably the sekonic 758DR, since I think I need reflected metering precisely for this kind of things), I'm trying to learn to light and expose the old-fashioned way (I found it mandatory on the BMC). In fact that's why I asked, just trying to educate myself here :)
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I'd suggest looking into other meters, I picked up the 758 Cine myself - but it's so complicated to operate and adjust I've never used anything but the most basic tools it offers. You can save money and get a smaller, less bulky meter quite easily.
 
I'm using a SEKONIC L-508 Zoom Master Light Meter, an older version of the 758 cine and no complaints. Might save you 50% of your money.

The 758 I believe will let you upload camera profiles you can create or download from others. It "could" be useful for getting an EXACT ISO whereas some meters only adjust in set increments.. but if you're decent at math you can learn to manage your own offsets if needed..
 
Thanks for the comments!
That 508 looks great, I'll read the manual to see if it does everything I need it to do, since it indeed costs half as much as the 758cine (and that would take me halfway to the next purchase, a couple of lowel pro lights; does this ever end? no need to answer, just a retorical question)

Edit: I read the manual, the 508 does everything I need, thanks! The only issue I find with it is that it only allows 1-stop and 1/2-stop adjustments (so, no 1/48s or 1/50s unless in cine-fps mode, which I'm not fond of); and the 758 is better in low light (one stop in incident, 3 stops in reflected); mmm... decisions, decisions...
 
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Samuel H said:
Thanks for the comments!
That 508 looks great, I'll read the manual to see if it does everything I need it to do, since it indeed costs half as much as the 758cine (and that would take me halfway to the next purchase, a couple of lowel pro lights; does this ever end? no need to answer, just a retorical question)
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Cool Samuel, glad I can save you some money. :cool:


Liam Hall said:
Common knowledge:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...larification&p=1239738&viewfull=1#post1239738
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That thread is only 2 days old, was it really common knowledge prior to then?

Funny for Jim to put his own spin on it and make it sound like a decision has been taken out of the hands of users with the Alexa. If Jim had invented a camera that did not shoot linear gamma with exceedingly high data information in the highlights, he too might have resorted to other techniques or technologies to wrangle highlights on a digital camera meant to emulate highlight characteristics of film.
 
IMO it's not "common" knowledge but more so "known" if you're that into the tech, have been to training, or surf forums.

It does help highlight rolloff, maybe not exactly like Alexa but certainly more pleasing. It does not fix color, if color is an issue one takes with the camera.

I'm still waiting to get a Classic Soft for my Blackmagic(s).

Would like to blurb on highlights in general: in that chaotic thread someone mentioned that you rarely see any strong highlights in RED footage. Someone else called him crazy or to that effect, or said that people are just bad DPs.

I have yet to meet a working, amateur, aspiring, whatever DP that doesn't steer clear of highlights when shooting RED. It's not even that people avoid them, people are TERRIFIED of highlights. This isn't JUST with RED, either: digital has birthed a fear of highs that's made for some really... uhhh... interesting looks for the past number of years. Me thinks Alexa has become so popular (aside from the obvious factors) because you don't have to fear one of the aspects of an image what makes it feel full.

That's been one of the major differences for me when shooting Blackmagic. I'm not afraid of the highlights even though they CAN clip really strangely sometimes. For the most part, the true linear DNG workflow has been really inspiring. The newer crops of cameras, with greater DR or better color science -- whatever hook they're going to use, will hopefully kill the fear.

That underexposed, dead look is ... dead.

The Conjuring, totally thought this was shot on film because of how bright and solid the image looked. I've seen dramas that look more like a "horror' than this, but it reminded me of cinema, if that makes sense. Like, watching The Poltergeist or similar. It just "looked" right, and it was refreshing as heck.
 
People aren't afraid to blow out highlights on RED, it's a choice that some people make. I'm not worried at all blowing out a highlight on RED, and I know other DP's that don't mind on RED either. RED handles highlights quite well out of the box, but everything clips, regardless of camera. It's only a deciding factor to how pleasing clipping can be in the shot. And with the RED it can work really well with or without filtration.
 
Joncarr said:
People aren't afraid to blow out highlights on RED, it's a choice that some people make. I'm not worried at all blowing out a highlight on RED, and I know other DP's that don't mind on RED either. RED handles highlights quite well out of the box, but everything clips, regardless of camera. It's only a deciding factor to how pleasing clipping can be in the shot. And with the RED it can work really well with or without filtration.
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Certainly not the consensus around here, in LA, as far as the camera and clipping, along with color goes. It's not about the fact that things clip (why anyone would think otherwise is weird), it's definitely about how ugly RED footage clips. That is common knowledge... to read people refuting that it isn't is really strange to me.

I've never ONCE heard anyone say "boy this footage has great highlight roll off" out of the box, and certainly not "Those RED cameras have great color".

But then again I spend most of my time in headphones so PERHAPS I'm just not listening.
 
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