First footage from the RED DRAGON released

Samuel H said:
...the light-meter readings in the video/framegrabs seem to indicate that these scenes were not really THAT demanding in this respect. What am I missing?
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There are plenty of challenging scenes there. He is shooting exactly as he shoots: to get a good image. So, it is not surprising that he is shooting within the limits of most cameras, because those are usually where the beauty shots are. But there were some shots that would put a strain on lesser sensors. I cannot imagine the GH2 looking that good on those exact same shots.

The nice thing about the extra DR is better roll off in the highlights, and more shadow detail, in my opinion. Not to "see" into them, but for them to be there quietly, like supporting characters. Haha, i am starting to sound cheesy.

I like the apparent feel of the mids on most cameras. It is the highlights and shadows that suffer. The idea of getting more cushion on the extremes, while keeping the mids more normal is what appeals to me.
 
Yes, I know it looks great, I understand that it's not a torture test, and I know that in fact some of those shots are demanding. It's the light-meter readings that are puzzling me. "Look how well this looks when your scene only requires 7 stops of DR" is not exactly the message I would have tried to convey. The demo would be more impressive without those readings.
 
Samuel H said:
Yes, I know it looks great, I understand that it's not a torture test, and I know that in fact some of those shots are demanding. It's the light-meter readings that are puzzling me. "Look how well this looks when your scene only requires 7 stops of DR" is not exactly the message I would have tried to convey. The demo would be more impressive without those readings.
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It will be interesting when some one does do a torture test though.
 
Samuel H said:
Yes, I know it looks great, I understand that it's not a torture test, and I know that in fact some of those shots are demanding. It's the light-meter readings that are puzzling me. "Look how well this looks when your scene only requires 7 stops of DR" is not exactly the message I would have tried to convey. The demo would be more impressive without those readings.
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The light meter readings show the range of values for correct MIDDLE GRAY exposure only. They do not necessarily fully indicate maximum scene DR. A better way to show it would have been +/-EV range around the indicated scene exposure with a spot meter.
 
^ That would be the case if they used incident metering. For something like this, I would have used reflected metering. But maybe you're right, and in any case I certainly lack the experience to know what the standard way of reporting these things would be.

edit: can you even give an incident measure for a specular highlight? these have to be reflected measures...
 
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Samuel H said:
^ That would be the case if they used incident metering. For something like this, I would have used reflected metering. But maybe you're right, and in any case I certainly lack the experience to know what the standard way of reporting these things would be.

edit: can you even give an incident measure for a specular highlight? these have to be reflected measures...
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A reflected meter reading also indicates an exposure value for middle gray. A spot meter reading can show the range of DR values, but the clearest way to communicate that is still +/- EV stops above and below the camera's exposure setting (middle gray reference=EV 0)
 
Samuel H said:
^ That would be the case if they used incident metering. For something like this, I would have used reflected metering. But maybe you're right, and in any case I certainly lack the experience to know what the standard way of reporting these things would be.

edit: can you even give an incident measure for a specular highlight? these have to be reflected measures...
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I think you need to rethink DR, 7 stop difference is a lot for any camera. if you compared it to the GH2 like you mentioned earlier you would be at its limits and would have to be favoring either the highlights or shadows. The dragon can also handle 16.5 stops throughout its whole ISO range also. Even if your shooting below its rated ISO your still get 16.5 stops. But do your own tests, you should be amazed. I know I still get amazed with the MX of what I can pull out from it.
 
Joncarr said:
I think you need to rethink DR, 7 stop difference is a lot for any camera. if you compared it to the GH2 like you mentioned earlier you would be at its limits and would have to be favoring either the highlights or shadows. The dragon can also handle 16.5 stops throughout its whole ISO range also. Even if your shooting below its rated ISO your still get 16.5 stops. But do your own tests, you should be amazed. I know I still get amazed with the MX of what I can pull out from it.
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I will definitely test myself: my next buy is a light meter (probably the sekonic 758DR, since I think I need reflected metering precisely for this kind of things), I'm trying to learn to light and expose the old-fashioned way (I found it mandatory on the BMC). In fact that's why I asked, just trying to educate myself here :)
 
Yep great camera sensor look forward to taking for a whirl......

Those despairing about cost, developments like this pave the way for all camera's sensors in the future, so whats top end today will someday be visiting consumerland. Witness what happened with Raw cameras & the price they once where, to what they are now.
 
Impressive on paper, but i'd still take the image from an alexa anyday over this. Just not a fan of the red look. Always had a harsh characteristic to it. Feel like i'd always be fighting the highlight roll off, color science, etc in post. Just never has looked natural to me. I know you guys will wax on about how amazing the skin tones look now and what not but just dont' like the red asthetic.
 
I agree.

With a camera that records RGB bayer pattern images, the "look" (albeit partially does come from the sensor characteristics itself) largely comes afterwards in post when the gamma (color science) is applied.

And regarding highlights, since it is linear gamma you have nearly infinite data information in the highlights to manage them how you want.

I feel that any specific characteristics "noticed" by a RED camera are as a result of the post work, not the camera itself but like Matt says, to each their own.
 
Yes, if you record RAW you shouldn't have any reason to complain about a camera's baked-in look. But there are many videos and movies out that were graded poorly --- surprisingly even from Hollywood.

But anything shot in RAW --- even something shot in 10-bit or better --- probably can be graded to whatever you want in post.

I think you have to underexpose by a stop or two to give yourself enough headroom in post.
 
combatentropy said:
I think you have to underexpose by a stop or two to give yourself enough headroom in post.
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You mainly have to shoot with a "fat negative", ie, give the sensor the most amount of light possible while protecting the highlights.

What the new Dragon sensor seems to do is give you an extra stop at the low and high end.
 
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still even if RAW the Info had to be generated...
sensor design, CFA,materials used etc etc may be different.
so i think there's definitely a difference between the RAW look of a F65/F55 and a RED Epic Dragon/Mx...
and then there's the glass in front of the sensor...;-))

seems a great update for RED at a very decent price point!
 
So you have to buy EPIC, then dragon update? How much is that - or can you buy Dragon camera off the shelf? If so how much?
 
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