First feature film shot with HVX200
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Shawn Murphy
Well-known member
Well, glad to hear it, as I said "..I really do hope you were kidding"
Sarcasm and jokes are a difficult thing to pull off, can you imagine how painful the world would be if we all put down our cameras and tried to become comedians! Ouch!
Sarcasm and jokes are a difficult thing to pull off, can you imagine how painful the world would be if we all put down our cameras and tried to become comedians! Ouch!
mattsdp
Active member
Sometimes I kinda wish the so called filmmakers out there "were just as aggressive and combative with there film projects as the are with there forum post. Then maybe we wouldn't have so much schlock out there! I actually agree with you guys! But, at the same time if I had a nickel for every "director" that I have worked with that could just as elequently justify then reasons of not needing film school verses the ones that actually direct there own projects just as elequenlty, I would own my Arricam LT by now! Stop the hatetred people and learn the craft. And don't be so quick to justify a certain path.
Film School or Not
Film School or Not
Though I agree film school is not absolutely necessary for directors or writers, I believe that for the technical positions, ie. cinematographer, editor, sound mixer, some type of schooling or at least apprenticeship is necessary. I mean, how would you even know how to use a light meter. And there are a lot of tricks of the trade you need to learn from someone who knows better. Shooting day for night, perspective matching for composites, etc. Shooting a movie, whether film or video, is not just about finding a nice angle or dollying the camera. The overall look has to match what the director wants. What if the director showed you a look from another movie, ie. Munich? How do you know which filters, which gels, which lights will produce the effect?
The reason why a lot of short and feature films look like poorly-made student films is that the cinematographer didn't know what he was doing. That coupled with horrible production design and actors who can't act all lead to disaster.
It is now so easy to press the record button on a camera that people forget there's a CRAFT to all of this. Just because you can reach the gas pedal doesn't mean you should be driving right away.
So if you're a cinematographer working on video, then please learn to light properly if you don't know already. It's true that with video, what you see is what you get. But how can you get what you WANT to see?
Film School or Not
Though I agree film school is not absolutely necessary for directors or writers, I believe that for the technical positions, ie. cinematographer, editor, sound mixer, some type of schooling or at least apprenticeship is necessary. I mean, how would you even know how to use a light meter. And there are a lot of tricks of the trade you need to learn from someone who knows better. Shooting day for night, perspective matching for composites, etc. Shooting a movie, whether film or video, is not just about finding a nice angle or dollying the camera. The overall look has to match what the director wants. What if the director showed you a look from another movie, ie. Munich? How do you know which filters, which gels, which lights will produce the effect?
The reason why a lot of short and feature films look like poorly-made student films is that the cinematographer didn't know what he was doing. That coupled with horrible production design and actors who can't act all lead to disaster.
It is now so easy to press the record button on a camera that people forget there's a CRAFT to all of this. Just because you can reach the gas pedal doesn't mean you should be driving right away.
So if you're a cinematographer working on video, then please learn to light properly if you don't know already. It's true that with video, what you see is what you get. But how can you get what you WANT to see?
Justyn
Veteran
Film school was a great escape... and not like real college at all. We were spoiled who went there. I didn't write any report or paper the final two years of college... Now that rocks.. and sure we made some films and such.. but it's all good times.
Film school was also a good place to set up networking opportunites and colleages for life. It's certainly not necessary though. and I think it took a certain spark out of me during that time... Kind of was more renegade and aggressive and driven before going through it. I'd recommend it for all of the fringe' benefits... and sure ya learn a bit of stuff too along the way.
Film school was also a good place to set up networking opportunites and colleages for life. It's certainly not necessary though. and I think it took a certain spark out of me during that time... Kind of was more renegade and aggressive and driven before going through it. I'd recommend it for all of the fringe' benefits... and sure ya learn a bit of stuff too along the way.
mattsdp
Active member
Thank you so much menchifus & Justyn! Being a product of film school myself, I have to agree. I have been shooting professionaly for 18 years now, and it pains me to see that there is so much anti film school going on that from time to time we need to point things out like that. For example....if I did not go to film school, i would have not gotten probably half as far in my career. I would have never met Conrad Hall, and ended up being his assistant for 2 years!! So I hate to burst bubbles out there people, there is still value in film school. Just because you can buy a HD camcorder does not make you a DP. It is the craft! I learned my craft and I continue to Master it. And I got all my basis and fundementals in film school. It was worth every penny!
I am sorry, but this was not the actual direction of where this particular thread was supposed to go. If i recall reading the first post.
As for Shawn Murphy, I guess he did not read all the post because my first post was only in agreement with what someone had posted earlier about a 20page script equaling a feature film. And then here comes the ole, critics.....calling me "absurd", for making a valid point. And I never said that if you did not go to film school that you were not a filmmaker, or even tryed to allude to that.
But, maybe we need to put the real issue on the table and start a thread about all the so called filmmakers that call themselves filmmakers and have no fundamentals, because they grabbed a camera and declared themselves emporer, and started an anit film school campaign! Then they call themselves DP's and don't know jack squat about a lighting ratio! Or other things that you learn in "filmschool" hands on!
Look I ain't trying to start nothing, but the term is "Don't Start None---Won't Be None!"
VIA LA FILMSCHOOL!
And if you didn't go to film school, I still have love for you, just don't hate on those who did. LEARN YOUR CRAFT MEN & WOMEN!!!!
I am sorry, but this was not the actual direction of where this particular thread was supposed to go. If i recall reading the first post.
As for Shawn Murphy, I guess he did not read all the post because my first post was only in agreement with what someone had posted earlier about a 20page script equaling a feature film. And then here comes the ole, critics.....calling me "absurd", for making a valid point. And I never said that if you did not go to film school that you were not a filmmaker, or even tryed to allude to that.
But, maybe we need to put the real issue on the table and start a thread about all the so called filmmakers that call themselves filmmakers and have no fundamentals, because they grabbed a camera and declared themselves emporer, and started an anit film school campaign! Then they call themselves DP's and don't know jack squat about a lighting ratio! Or other things that you learn in "filmschool" hands on!
Look I ain't trying to start nothing, but the term is "Don't Start None---Won't Be None!"
VIA LA FILMSCHOOL!
And if you didn't go to film school, I still have love for you, just don't hate on those who did. LEARN YOUR CRAFT MEN & WOMEN!!!!
Just to Clarify
Just to Clarify
I agree with you Mattsdp. But just to let you know I didn't actually go to film school. I took a couple of classes at UCLA but that's about it. I'm a director and I actually learned more from watching movies and reading books. As a writer or director, film school is optional. The creative aspect of our jobs is more important than knowing the technical details.
I've been a paid director for the last 2 years (I'm 29years old), and I've directed about 10 music videos and a couple of commercials. This is basically my film school because no film school can replace the experience I've gained. I've shot 35mm, Cinealta, and on the DVX.
Now when it comes to photography and editing, you can't learn on the job (if you're the lead). You can't tell a director or producer that you'll figure out how to light an interior scene as you go along. First of all, do you even know what lighting equipment to request? When you ask for a generator, do you know how much power you'll need for the lights you requested?
I think the reason inexperienced "DPs" can get away with it now with video is that their productions usually don't have enough budgets to rent decent lighting. So they have 2 plugin lights to work with and it's pretty self-explanatory where you point those lights (even I can do that). But please, just because you can't afford lights, don't say training is not necessary. I've worked with 3 DPs and they're all trained well. And damn, they make me look good.
Just to Clarify
I agree with you Mattsdp. But just to let you know I didn't actually go to film school. I took a couple of classes at UCLA but that's about it. I'm a director and I actually learned more from watching movies and reading books. As a writer or director, film school is optional. The creative aspect of our jobs is more important than knowing the technical details.
I've been a paid director for the last 2 years (I'm 29years old), and I've directed about 10 music videos and a couple of commercials. This is basically my film school because no film school can replace the experience I've gained. I've shot 35mm, Cinealta, and on the DVX.
Now when it comes to photography and editing, you can't learn on the job (if you're the lead). You can't tell a director or producer that you'll figure out how to light an interior scene as you go along. First of all, do you even know what lighting equipment to request? When you ask for a generator, do you know how much power you'll need for the lights you requested?
I think the reason inexperienced "DPs" can get away with it now with video is that their productions usually don't have enough budgets to rent decent lighting. So they have 2 plugin lights to work with and it's pretty self-explanatory where you point those lights (even I can do that). But please, just because you can't afford lights, don't say training is not necessary. I've worked with 3 DPs and they're all trained well. And damn, they make me look good.
I believe filmmakers do not need school as any artist does not need school. But it certainly helps to learn faster and it helps you actually get better work much faster when you are starting your career.
Does a musician have to be formally educated in music? Not really. Same applies to filmmakers.
Some people can see, some cannot see. The people that can see and are systematic and creative can learn the art by studying the works of others. Not many people are systematic though and most have to be tought how to see. Some people cannot even read 10 pages off a book if they are not forced to do so in education. They think they can just go out and create. They think pressing a button is enough. They are in a hurry. They don't care about the technical aspects. The most important DPs never use the word ART. They use the word CRAFT. In greek we have a single word for both. Both mean the same thing. There is a terrible book called "$30 Film school". The kid next door got it and asked me about what I think. The author uses the word ART thousands of times in that book! And the book is TOTAL nonsense. This is what we should avoid. People that use the word ART and think they don't need anyone or anything. Anyway, cinematography is something you have to learn to do. Something you have to study. Inside school or outside school you have to study the masters I believe. You have to think. And you have to learn each part of the process in detail. THEN you can probably create something.
I believe far too many people wouldn't be able to read or write if the state did not force us to do so by not giving as a choice
What 5yo wants to go to school? They don't need it! I wanted to go to school and I was very anxious about going to school. Some people found that ammusing. Kids at my age thought I was insane I believe this is the reason most young "filmmakers" are so bad at what they do. They THINK they don't need to learn.
Does a musician have to be formally educated in music? Not really. Same applies to filmmakers.
Some people can see, some cannot see. The people that can see and are systematic and creative can learn the art by studying the works of others. Not many people are systematic though and most have to be tought how to see. Some people cannot even read 10 pages off a book if they are not forced to do so in education. They think they can just go out and create. They think pressing a button is enough. They are in a hurry. They don't care about the technical aspects. The most important DPs never use the word ART. They use the word CRAFT. In greek we have a single word for both. Both mean the same thing. There is a terrible book called "$30 Film school". The kid next door got it and asked me about what I think. The author uses the word ART thousands of times in that book! And the book is TOTAL nonsense. This is what we should avoid. People that use the word ART and think they don't need anyone or anything. Anyway, cinematography is something you have to learn to do. Something you have to study. Inside school or outside school you have to study the masters I believe. You have to think. And you have to learn each part of the process in detail. THEN you can probably create something.
I believe far too many people wouldn't be able to read or write if the state did not force us to do so by not giving as a choice
What 5yo wants to go to school? They don't need it! I wanted to go to school and I was very anxious about going to school. Some people found that ammusing. Kids at my age thought I was insane I believe this is the reason most young "filmmakers" are so bad at what they do. They THINK they don't need to learn.
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I don't disagree
I don't disagree
I'm not saying that all cinematographers must go to formal film school. But they definitely need to work with someone and apprentice.
Musicians are completely different. You can buy a guitar and learn all the chords in your own time. You can even learn from books.
Sure, you can argue that DPs can practice "on their own time" also. But unless they own a lighting unit, what producer would let them practice on his film. I certainly wouldn't hire someone who has no experience or technical know-how.
I don't disagree
I'm not saying that all cinematographers must go to formal film school. But they definitely need to work with someone and apprentice.
Musicians are completely different. You can buy a guitar and learn all the chords in your own time. You can even learn from books.
Sure, you can argue that DPs can practice "on their own time" also. But unless they own a lighting unit, what producer would let them practice on his film. I certainly wouldn't hire someone who has no experience or technical know-how.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Whom are you talking too? and why are you running smack at Mr Murphy ? Shawn is right. Film School doesn't mean squat.
You want to start making judgements on who is a filmmaker and who is not around here ? There are tons of directors that don't know jack about lighting ratios and leave that up to the D.P. or that have never attended film school.
Masta Spielberg bailed on film school. Tarantino didn't go to film school, Rodriguez didn't go to film school. Tons of directors working never went to film school. Cameron, Eastwood, Gibson. Woody Allen dropped out of filmmschool....
There are tons of people around here that have never gone to filmschool but I assure you they are filmmakers.
---
Film School. I consider film school to be a tremendous waste of time and money. If you got it in you; go for it but why not take that money and buy your own gear and make more movies than you'll ever make in 2 years of film school.
Today is a different era as it is; with the gear immediately available for us to play with and own. The secret ingredient is
'Make Movies'
It is not Film School nor is it Not going to film School. It is Making Movies.
Why don't you tell us what makes a filmmaker. And who is starting an Anti-FS campaign? I think you may have to accept that Film School is one of a few avenues into the world of filmmaking.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Film School is like Tennis School. If you don't have it in you, it's a big phenomenal waste of money and time.
But if you DO have it in you, going to the Nick Bollitieri (sp) academy is the best thing you can do. Don't go to just any old tennis academy, because that won't help. But there's a reason that just about every major champion comes out of that school. And there's a reason that USC, UCLA and NYU turn out superstar filmmakers.
But if you DO have it in you, going to the Nick Bollitieri (sp) academy is the best thing you can do. Don't go to just any old tennis academy, because that won't help. But there's a reason that just about every major champion comes out of that school. And there's a reason that USC, UCLA and NYU turn out superstar filmmakers.
So, someone made it and didn't study formally and that means I can make it and we can follow his example? I think this is against basic statistics. One person might get lucky and be there 50 years later to say the story. That does not mean it is a good path to follow. Thousands of others did not make it and would have a chance if they actually studied the subject and became better at thei craft. Learning on your own takes a lot more time. School is usually more effective for the typical person. I don't belive everyone that says I don't need school is a genious Quite the contrary.
You can learn some chords and write a few songs. But you will be much more effective and you will be depending less on luck if you actually know how music works and how to communicate with musicians.
I think you should skip school if you don't care about progressing faster and if you can afford to miss the opportunities. 2005 is not 1935. Today you can work on something faster but usually you work with mediocre professionals since the market is so good at the moment and there are more producers than bricks. You don't learn much by working with these people. 2 or 3 years are nothing compared to the knowledge you can get in a good school. You will have access to capable people that WANT to share their knowledge. You will learn the basics and far more than that.
Skipping school is only for extremely capable and intelligent people. Not many arround these days
I have friends that teach Cinematography. We share a view: If everyone forgot Rodriguez existed, they would have a better chance at becoming something.
Quite the contrary.You can learn some chords and write a few songs. But you will be much more effective and you will be depending less on luck if you actually know how music works and how to communicate with musicians.
I think you should skip school if you don't care about progressing faster and if you can afford to miss the opportunities. 2005 is not 1935. Today you can work on something faster but usually you work with mediocre professionals since the market is so good at the moment and there are more producers than bricks. You don't learn much by working with these people. 2 or 3 years are nothing compared to the knowledge you can get in a good school. You will have access to capable people that WANT to share their knowledge. You will learn the basics and far more than that.
Skipping school is only for extremely capable and intelligent people. Not many arround these days
I have friends that teach Cinematography. We share a view: If everyone forgot Rodriguez existed, they would have a better chance at becoming something.
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Filmjunkie677
Master of Horror
limo991 said:Skipping school is only for extremely capable and intelligent people. Not many arround these days
Well, that comment pretty much sums up your intelligence.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Nothing compares to actually making films. Nothing.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Alright kids; keep it civil please.
Let's not get all emotional over opinions on filmschool benes.
Let's not get all emotional over opinions on filmschool benes.
John_Hudson said:
This is quite true ... but film school can help in a lot of respects by teaching you technical knowledge as well as put you in a constant environment that encourages the art. I feel this is something overlooked when people talk about how film school is such a waste and not necessary.
Not necessary is true ... but it can only help I suppose ...
GaryinCalifornia
Veteran
Spielberg went to Long Beach State because he couldn't get into USC... now what does that tell you...
RR... I thought went to the home of the national champs UofTexas...
But John is right... the film that I'm working on as a line producer that starts Monday... the director is not a film school guy... he started out as an actor... jumped to being awriter... won and Emmy for writing In Living Color which lead to him creating several TV shows
You make of yourself what you want to be... I didn't finish going to USC and gee I'm working on my six feature film as a line producer... guys that I went to school with are not even working on films that got their degree...
RR... I thought went to the home of the national champs UofTexas...
But John is right... the film that I'm working on as a line producer that starts Monday... the director is not a film school guy... he started out as an actor... jumped to being awriter... won and Emmy for writing In Living Color which lead to him creating several TV shows
You make of yourself what you want to be... I didn't finish going to USC and gee I'm working on my six feature film as a line producer... guys that I went to school with are not even working on films that got their degree...
Drew599
Veteran
If you can move out to L.A. or somewhere else that has some kind of film industry and just get a job on set or in a cutting room. You will learn far more than you would in film school. BTW you don't need to go to film school to get a job in the film industry. All you need to do is realize that you might have to work for free or for food. Maybe for the first couple projects. It also helps if you have some kind of skill. With a skill people will more than likely pay you to be working with them.