Firmware Update for the AF100

And one more thing (if, by any remote chance anyone from Panasonic is actually following this discussion):

If Sony (with the F3 and FS100) and RED (with the Scarlet and Epic-S) and Canon (with DSLRs or new cameras) DO, in the future, give value-added (not just bugfix) firmware updates to their users - and Panasonic DOESN'T........then they've lost me as a customer.
 
Steve R said:
And one more thing (if, by any remote chance anyone from Panasonic is actually following this discussion), if Sony (with the F3 and FS100) and RED (with the Scarlet and Epic-S) and Canon (with DSLRs or new cameras) DO, in the future, give value-added (not just bugfix) firmware updates to their users - and Panasonic DOESN'T........then they've lost me as a customer.
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And here I thought for a moment that you were an optimist. :)

EDIT: It sounds as though you feel strongly about this. So if Panasonic's next gen AVCCAM camcorder below $5K has all the image and features of the Alexa, but no firmware feature enhancements while competition does, would you still hold on to your guns?
 
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No, of course not. If something pretty much "couldn't get any better" - then there's no reason for it to get any better through firmware updates.

But (in my experience), there's no perfect camera - and what you've described is pretty close to perfect.

So it's my turn to say "Ain't gonna happen" :)
 
Paul F said:
Rick,

While Panasonic has the code open and engineers assigned, have them put a couple of our favorite tweaks in (like ISO on the back wheel). The code is open, they have to put it into production, so adding a couple of tweaks should not add much time to the effort.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?248553-Footage-problem-has-anyone-seen-this-problem

Jan,

Please give Engineering a call to put in some updates. They are touching the code as we speak.
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Did I say engineers? No. They told me "A Japanese Engineer". And you, nor I, really have NO clue how much effort that would entail, period.
 
Geez Rick. We're all AF100 owners here. Maybe I needed a smiley face on my comment to you. I was just elbowing you. Maybe you don't want any firmware tweaks, but I was hoping you would put a more positive spin on it for the rest of us that do, considering Panasonic fixing your camera with a firmware update as we speak.

I agree. Some of us might not have a clue how much effort that would entail but I'll bet if a guy:

wrote firmware for realtime embedded products
had over 25 years in design, development, manufacturing of electronics,
developed custom electronics specifically for the feature film industry
was head of the product architecture department of a $5 Billion product group
had patents in the US and China
was product manager of a $80 million product .....

I'll bet someone like that might have a decidedly excellent idea of how much effort it is. But, maybe not.
 
Sorry to be so firm, but I didn't realize the tone of your message, it came across totally differently when I read it, and when I am quoted about something, I find clarity important. If you go back and read the plethora of threads that have already been written where Jan has participated pertaining to firmware updates, you'll see all the enhancement requests I've asked for, even before the camera was shipping. You'll see where I disagreed with Panasonic on a few things and would always welcome those changes. I was told it wasn't going to happen. If you look at the number of people in the AF100 shooter list compared to the number of people complaining about a firmware update, you'd see it is a small percentage of people. If/when Panasonic realizes they are loosing sales to other cameras because of firmware enhancements, then yes, I would expect them to change their practice, but as been said countless times here, that isn't the case. I've seen no proof that the industry has suddenly completely changed. Sure, it evolves, but writing the same thing over and over from 3 or 4 people in a forum is not a "majority" outcry to get something changed.

I've been a chip designer for 16 years, and I've worked on everything from satellites, cell phones, printers, network controllers, the Xbox 360, to even video cameras. I've worked with companies in Canada, Japan, South Korea, India, Israel, England, Germany and Scotland to name a few. I've worked with probably 2 or 3 times as many companies having to work within their development paradigm. I've also been a software developer and ran my own company for 4 years, and have done embedded systems coding as well, including high speed DSP technologies. The one thing I learned all these years is the bigger the company, the slower their methodology changes. In addition, almost every company I have worked with works differently.

That said, being someone with such a background, then it should come as no surprise to you that almost EVERY company I have ever worked with is always working 200% all the time trying to get products/designs out the door with another product right on its heals. You should also know that throwing more engineers on a problem does not make it get done faster, and that is especially with complex signal processing systems, which a camera is. I am sure you've seen or read "The Mythical Man Month" which talks about this fallacy in the engineering world. If I were to take an educated guess about Panasonic, and to follow with Barry's comments; they are more than likely on a hard to meet schedule working on the next generation of cameras. Every second they spend down trying to fix or enhance something on the AF100 will take away from work on the newer designs. With Sony and Canon as their competition, and the price points they are hitting, they are surely aware that they've got to keep up with the competition. Obviously you already have the camera, so nothing needs to change in their view yet. Maybe by the next round of cameras that will change. My Sony with the FS100 could set a new precedence, all speculation of course. But looking historically at the price point of the AF100, no, there is no precedence in that camera niche yet. Sure, I'd love Panasonic to be the first, but from a bottom line stand point, it makes no sense for them to change their model yet.

People quote DSLR as adding features. Really? So Canon updated the 5D to add some features. What about the 7D? It has a more powerful processing system, why didn't it get manual audio? What about the t2i, t3i, 60D? I've written Canon multiple times about updates for the 7D but it didn't happen. Canon isn't setting a precedence. They did a one off thing that they haven't repeated for reasons I do not know. Industry pressure? Sales protection making people want it for video work above other cameras? I can't say, I can only guess. The only firmware that was released for the 7D was for bugs.

When I say that we have no clue what is involved, I mean that from the big picture from Panasonic. I don't see ANYTHING forcing their hand to change something in the camera. They already said 2:1 or 1:1 zoom isn't physically possible with the architecture. Given the FS100 gain system works the same selectable wise as the FS100, it's not like anyone can go to another camera at the same class and get what they want (and that even includes going up to the F3 which also I see no dial ISO settings). For me, those were the two biggest changes I wanted. Panasonic has set their target on replacing the HVX200 with a 35mm adapter system with the AF100 so people who are familiar mostly with the HVX seem to have no problem going to the AF100.

And the reason people keep saying this is beating a dead horse is because Panasonic knows we'd like firmware updates. I've spoken with multiple people at Panasonic about this. They may or may not have read your comments here. But, if you *really* want to let them know, I suggest telling them. I've told them. Maybe if enough people ask them directly they might think about it more. But, like I said, from what I see, the people inquiring about a firmware update, at least here, seem to be a small percentage.
 
Paul F said:
I'll bet someone like that might have a decidedly excellent idea of how much effort it is. But, maybe not.
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Yeah, a good idea only. Unless one is ultimately familiar with specific dev process (e.g., its rigors), code complexity, and allocated resources, it is just that: an idea. Some dev teams conduct full regression testing and beta, for example, while others do selective unit and integration testing only. Imagine if the new build is out, and it breaks something else. To save the embarrassment, grief, and additional costs, it might actually take longer to validate changes than implement them. However, if the manufacturer is willing to respond by code alteration out of band (i.e., emergency fix), then this is a sure indication of working customer service and commitment to quality. Hope it won't take months.
 
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As fellow AF100 owners, I would hope that we would support each other and press Panasonic to change practice to our benefit, so that we do get enhancements. Saying they will never do it (yes, I understand about setting expectations) and explaining the rigors of development, are not putting a positive spin to our benefit. The fact that Panasonic is, right now, working on the AF100 firmware is an opportunity. The opportunity may be less than 1%. But with everyone setting low expectations, and no one chiming in about what an excellent opportunity Panasonic has to change their policies, you all seem to be spinning this thread against the AF100 owners. How about some support?

I know in the whole scope of things, this is all quite inconsequential. But still, they are working on the code right now. Let's demand better of them.
 
Going to the mattresses effectively, a group needs organisation and capable leadership. Someone with verifiable industry experience and, preferrably, a recognized expert with accollades, who is willing to rally the community and push/market the change with the manufacturer. For the best chances of consideration, the change(s) must be very specific, realistic, modest, and with identifiable benefits for a strong business case. Finally, one must have access (info) about whom to target inside. One or more supporters of the requested change(s) with substantial bargaining clout. Unless these issues are addressed, the chances of change are slim. Sorry if this sounds pragmatic, but it must be if one is serious. Otherwise lotsa steam blowing... trust me on this. Being in the quality improvement and change management for a while allows this advice. Are you or anyone you know up for this? I will sign the petition.
 
Certainly Jan and Barry have factory contacts and represent the AF 100 community both from inside and out side Panasonic.

Jan, Barry, as Panasonic now has an engineer working on the code, can you make a plea to have them review the requests that have already been made here on this forum and take them into consideration?
 
I have already done so. In fact, I've been harping on them for months prior to this thread even coming into existence. I've given them specific examples of what we want done, ranked by which the community seems to think are most important, etc.

Trust me, this is all being done and has been communicated to them very effectively. But you simply have to recognize that the likelihood of them adding features in a firmware update are near zero. Doesn't stop me from lobbying and asking and collecting ideas and presenting them (because if you don't ask, you don't get), but the business model that they've always gone by doesn't give me any reason for optimism that it'll suddenly change now.
 
I once sent a written letter (yes- an actual piece of paper with ink on it) to Yukiaki Hashimoto, senior vice president and general manager of the consumer imaging group at Canon U.S.A. I asked them to add a feature via firmware that disabled the AGC on the T2i. I explained that the same feature was available in lower end video products. I actually got a letter back (from some secretary) explaining that they "would not offer any new features to an already released product". But they did just that by adding 24p to the 5dMK2 and...... oh, never mind.

I will give this to panasonic- I don't know of any other camera manufacturer where a product manager follows a third party user forum (like Jan Crittenden does here at DVXuser). Who knows what kind of features the current AF100 has right now...... that might not have been had they not been listening.
 
Thanks Barry. We all appreciate the effort. While chances of getting features added may be small, they are zero if no attempt is taken. Squeaky wheel and all.....

Yes, having the product manager stick their neck out on a public forum is to be lauded. It's easy to lurk and extract information, but Jan made herself available for the good and the bad. I haven't forgotten the free Barry-book either. I'd be lost without it.
 
I agree... and I would be willing to send an actual ink on paper request if we could designate a target. I am happy with the camera, it has paid for itself, and yes, I believe we should be grateful to be the recipients of their boldness and the R&D it took to bring it into being, but we have also acted in good faith... to be the first to plunk down cash for a new generation product amidst the cries of "let them shake the bugs out" and "beware of being on the bleeding edge". I bought a first gen DVX only to see the 100B come out soon afterward with "improvements", but I didn't run out and get it... (although I did wish for a smoother zoom control etc)... I used that tool until this one replaced it... and I now have a full range of the Panasonic lenses from 7mm - 300mm... so I do feel that we deserve some consideration for our loyalty and support. So, I don't think it's whining on our part... I mean, how much would it cost to have ISO on the rear wheel? It's awkward to have to drill into menus to adjust sensitivity while retaining DOF... It's not a hardware change... the wheel is already there as is the code for adjusting film speed... If they happen to be working on it at the moment.

I guess what I'm asking is if there is another venue to express this to the manufacturer in some sort of organized way, other than preaching to the choir here? (and no I don't think pitchforks or a petition is the way to go either) Just a respectful suggestion from folks who care.
 
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Ahh, we've had it wrong all along. Being able to get to only 3 of the 5 ISO settings on the switch is a BUG! It needs to be fixed and put on the back wheel! Panasonic, this must be fixed in the current software update! :)
 
Paul F said:
Ahh, we've had it wrong all along. Being able to get to only 3 of the 5 ISO settings on the switch is a BUG! It needs to be fixed and put on the back wheel! Panasonic, this must be fixed in the current software update! :)
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Haha, okay, that made me laugh :) I've felt that both Panasonic AND Sony didn't approach the gain setting right on the AF100, F3 or the FS100. I know that both companies seem to be retaining some of the design of older cameras and interfaces, especially the AF100, and because of that, I believe they've had the mentality of "just change in iris settings" since with small sensor cameras that these interfaces were designed for, DOF wasn't modified as much by the iris setting. However, with these cameras, and specifically for me the FS100 and the AF100, I don't want to adjust the iris for exposure. I want to modify the gain. I became spoiled by my 7D and changing the ISO while keeping the aperture constant. I like to control my DOF specifically for my shots.
 
A gain/Iso firmware update shouldn't be so hard. Make the LMH switch able to be set at +1, +2, +3 and have the back dial be able to set ISO. So if you set your ISO on the back at 400, and the L setting is 0, you're at 400. If the M setting is set to +1, you're at 800. Sort of a ev compensation. There should also be a back dial mode for setting scene selection.
 
Rick Burnett said:
... I don't want to adjust the iris for exposure. I want to modify the gain. I became spoiled by my 7D and changing the ISO while keeping the aperture constant. I like to control my DOF specifically for my shots.
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Yes, exactly!

The difference between the AF100 and earlier camcorders for mortals like us is the big sensor. We are using this for depth of field options that were not available on small sensor cams.

When you've been shooting with it for real for a while that you get this "Iris is fixed, for the look. Change the gain" way of working. It is different from film (where changing ISO on the fly wasn't exactly an option mid-roll) and different from small sensor cams because the noise and general look changes very gracefully as you dial up the ISO, like it does with stills dSLRs.

I don't in any way blame Panasonic for not being prescient and realising that it would be a more sensible way of working than the old camcorder way. After all, they did deliver what we wanted, a large sensor camera with video camera operating style. Most of those operating style decisions are 100% still the right thing to be doing with a large format sensor. (ND, XLR, waveform, custom WB, etc.)

It turns out that the characteristics of the new sensor mean changing the gain is something one wants to do routinely and in small, controlled steps as fine as the camera offers. Making half or third stop ISO adjustments can get your exposure spot on without changing iris. It is no longer a last-ditch "it's too dark man... hit the gain button" way of working. ISO on the back wheel is something I'd use constantly.

Cheers, Hywel
 
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