firmware for sale- what would you pay?

[Ed Kishel]

I know there are plenty of threads on the AF100 firmware i.e. what can they add, what should they add, would they ever add this or that, why don't they fix this or that, and so on and so forth. But humor me The recent 1080 60p $250 paid firmware announcement got me thinking of two things:

1) really? no thanks...
2) does this signify a change in thinking about Panasonic's attitude towards firmware features on released cameras?

Up until now, their response to firmware requests has been something to the effect of "if it's broke we'll look into it, otherwise don't expect any new features". But with the SFU100, now it looks as if they are (at least) entertaining the idea of "features for sale". So the to the point of this post- what FW feature(s) would you be willing to pay for and how much would you be willing to spend?

I myself would pay $250 for a focus/exposure upgrade: 1:1 expanded focus, and have the peaking / histogram avail off the HDMI out. Maybe $50 for a time and date stamp.

 

[dcloud]

Expanded focus + sfu100 @ 250. Sure.

 

[Steve Kahn]

AVCHD metadata upgrade please.

(haven't been following the story but if it's true with the GH-2) Further bitrate push past 28 would be nice as well.


EDIT: if Panny is finally accepting that pushing bitrate would help I'd be interested in seeing some testing done to say that 28 is the new sweet spot - but I have a feeling they are keeping 24 so everything works nice with consumer devices - definitively not a good decision. I'm assuming the 28 is only with 60p - again, not a good decision.

EDIT 2: I'd pay $$$ to upgrade AVCHD to help eliminate banding in post and let one push the codec further.

 

[Rowy]

Yep - If expanded focus was included I would have happily forked out for the upgrade (I've would've paid $250 for each camera just for this feature) but as it is I'm not going to bother.

What are people using 50P/60P for? I haven't had any clients (broadcast or corprate) ask for stuff to be shot in the formatt.

 

[anatusa]

i would be willing to pay even more of what they offering now if they would include also:

- 4:2:2 internal (hope it can be done with soft update)
- more mb/s
- and u already told about better focus assistance , and availability to see it on external monitor via hdmi would be perfect!
- maybe a better slow motion

that i think would be definitely worth a payed update for everyone, not just for broadcasters!

 

[deltoidjohn]

What are people using 50P/60P for? I haven't had any clients (broadcast or corprate) ask for stuff to be shot in the formatt.

Slow motion. It's great for action sports or wildlife shooters, because you can shoot at 50/60p at full resoution and have the option to slow it down later if you want. With 720p50/60 you sacrifice resolution, so you only want to use it if you know you'll be slowing the footage down later. With the nature of action sports though, you never really know in advance if you want slow motion or not.

The reason it took so long for 1080p50/60 to appear in pro cameras (this feature has been in consumer cams for a few years now) is because, as you say, nobody wants material delivered in this format. It is not a broadcast standard, and I don't think it is included in the blu-ray specs either. But then, neither is 4k - though everyone still seems to be clamouring for it. It's always better to have more data than you need and discard it if necessary than to have insufficient resolution/frames.

 

[Babu]

Up to $500 for increased Resolution some how. :/ I know it's pretty much impossible.

 

[mainstreetprod]

I don't need 60P. Rather than pay $250 for 1:1 focus assist, I would rather spend $38 more (as I just did) and get a high rez 5" monitor that has zoom focus with a wired remote button for it (see this thread)Ruige TL-S500HD 5" monitor short review

 

[Rowy]

Slow motion. It's great for action sports or wildlife shooters, because you can shoot at 50/60p at full resoution and have the option to slow it down later if you want. With 720p50/60 you sacrifice resolution, so you only want to use it if you know you'll be slowing the footage down later. With the nature of action sports though, you never really know in advance if you want slow motion or not.

The reason it took so long for 1080p50/60 to appear in pro cameras (this feature has been in consumer cams for a few years now) is because, as you say, nobody wants material delivered in this format. It is not a broadcast standard, and I don't think it is included in the blu-ray specs either. But then, neither is 4k - though everyone still seems to be clamouring for it. It's always better to have more data than you need and discard it if necessary than to have insufficient resolution/frames.

The AF-102 already did 1080/50 slo-mo so what they've done is add audio and a slightly higher record rate or am I just not getting it?

 

[tacotim]

I'd pay $300 for
1. more control over highlight handling and/ or more graceful roll off to pure white.
2. 1:1 focus
I'd pay an additional $300 if it also included
3. higher bitrates


The features in the announced $250 firmware are of no use to me.

 

[chervas]

Higher resolution
12-13 stops of DR
4:2:2
1:1 focus
10 bits
p-log out
I'll pay an extra $10000
Oh, and I want it by July, this July

 

[Barry_Green]

The AF-102 already did 1080/50 slo-mo so what they've done is add audio and a slightly higher record rate or am I just not getting it?

They made the camera compatible with AVCHD 2.0, which is a revision to the AVCHD format to support "live" 1080/50p and 1080/60p. In AVCHD, the maximum is 1080/50i or 1080/60i at a max of 24mbps. In AVCHD 2.0, the max is 1080/50p or 1080/60p at a max of 28mbps.

The AF10x series has always supported overcranked slow-mo at a bitrate up to 36mbps, without sound. The new recording mode, PS, is a "live" (i.e., not slow-mo) recording format. Think of it like 1080/50i or 1080/60i, but instead of interlaced fields it uses progressive frames.

 

[anatusa]

Higher resolution
12-13 stops of DR
4:2:2
1:1 focus
10 bits
p-log out
I'll pay an extra $10000
Oh, and I want it by July, this July

very nice sense of humor!:thumbsup:

 

[Kenny_G]

Higher resolution
12-13 stops of DR
4:2:2
1:1 focus
10 bits
p-log out
I'll pay an extra $10000
Oh, and I want it by July, this July

Joker, why not settle for 4:2:2 10 bits 50mbs(real HD sharpness - 1080p, not 720p) and correcting the way highlight are handled by the camera, especially in a pan-shot. If that can be accomplished, Iam willing to pay an extra 1000bucks.

 

[Steve Kahn]

They made the camera compatible with AVCHD 2.0, which is a revision to the AVCHD format to support "live" 1080/50p and 1080/60p. In AVCHD, the maximum is 1080/50i or 1080/60i at a max of 24mbps. In AVCHD 2.0, the max is 1080/50p or 1080/60p at a max of 28mbps.

The AF10x series has always supported overcranked slow-mo at a bitrate up to 36mbps, without sound. The new recording mode, PS, is a "live" (i.e., not slow-mo) recording format. Think of it like 1080/50i or 1080/60i, but instead of interlaced fields it uses progressive frames.

But if you put this 60p "live" in a 24fps timeline do we not now have 60fps overcrank with sound? Does this max out at 28 or does live max out at 36Mbit as well?

I really do like this a la carte firmware option. Hope it will continue and expand.

 

[Barry_Green]

But if you put this 60p "live" in a 24fps timeline

That's not what it's for...

but, continuing with your question...

do we not now have 60fps overcrank with sound?

Well, sort of. You could slow the 60p down to 24fps by slowing it to 40%, but -- what would happen with your sound? It'd be there, but what would it sound like playing back at 40% speed? Terrible. I mean, you could have it, yes, but what would you do with it?

Does this max out at 28 or does live max out at 36Mbit as well?

28.

 

[Steve Kahn]

28.

Not good at all. Though it has been a very rare occurrence I have seen artifacts at 60fps overcrank. With only 28Mbit that's only going to be worse.

So the 4Mbit addition is dedicated to sound? I could be wrong but I remember reading somewhere that in AVCHD 4Mbit of the codec is for sound.

If a hacker can boost the bitrate I don't understand why Panasonic wont play that game as well. People will be willing to pay. I know I would be to have a more robust capture codec rather than the standard AVCHD. I, and others, have had banding troubles when pushing too far in post not to mention the highlight handling dance we do on set.

 

[hscully]

Expanded focus, AVC-Intra/Ultra, 10bit higher bit rate. I just wonder how much of this is possible without upgrading the hardware. I would consider that if it were to come available. It is my understanding that the highlight handling is a function of the sensor. Same thing.

Regarding the GH2 type hacks it appears that the hack uncovered inactive capabilities already there. Is that correct? If so, and the AF100's hardware is similarly constrained, then I would pay for a firmware change to uncover them. I just wonder if Panasonic would do that. If practical, why didn't they do it in the first place? Engineering requires compromise (e.g. cost/value).

Most of what I think I want would be accomplished with an recorder like the NanoFlash. My hope is that it will help with the banding. Does it or is that an 8bit artifact that can only be gaurded against even with the recorder?

 

[Barry_Green]

Not good at all. Though it has been a very rare occurrence I have seen artifacts at 60fps overcrank. With only 28Mbit that's only going to be worse.

It's not their decision as to what to change it to. It's what AVCHD 2.0 is. This isn't some Panasonic "bitrate boost", it's making it compatible with the existing standard of AVCHD 2.0.

So the 4Mbit addition is dedicated to sound? I could be wrong but I remember reading somewhere that in AVCHD 4Mbit of the codec is for sound.

No, of course not; it's for the additional video bandwidth. The sound is exactly the same. The only thing that changed is that there's 2x as many video frames. Which doesn't require 2x as much bandwidth to encode, because this is a long-GoP codec, and so each frame only needs to encode the changes from the previous frame (essentially). With 60p, there's much less that changes between frames than 30p, so each frame will encode a lot smaller, so apparently the AVCHD group felt that 28mbps was enough.

Don't think of this as compared to the existing 1080/60p. That's the wrong way to think of it. Think of it in comparison to the existing 1080/60i. 60i is 1080, for "live" footage, with sound. Well, the new mode is 60p 1080 for "live" footage with sound. It is not an improvement or modification to the existing slow-mo 60p, it is a new mode that is a big improvement over the "live" 60i.

If you're using it for slow-mo, the existing AF100 method is better, as it goes up to 36mbps.

This new mode is for "live" production, so it keeps the sound as well as giving you live footage and live playback of 60p. Not for slow-mo.

If a hacker can boost the bitrate I don't understand why Panasonic wont play that game as well.

Well, because a hacker can't boost the bitrate, is why.

People will be willing to pay.

Yes, they probably would. And if a hacker could actually do it, they'd have done it already and could charge people who would happily pay. But it can't be done, this is a Panasonic Broadcast product and isn't open to the hacking type of things that the consumer product is.

I know I would be to have a more robust capture codec rather than the standard AVCHD.

Well, you can -- that's what the Hyperdeck Shuttle 2.0 is for. You can get fully uncompressed or DNxHD recording, for $345. And the great thing is, no "hack" necessary, so no reliability questions. And you'll also have simultaneous recording so you'll have a backup in case anything were to happen to your recording media.

I know it's not what you're asking for, but it is a way to get what you're asking for, with none of the drawbacks of opening up your camera to whatever instability or reliability issues could happen with hacked firmware.

 

[Steve Kahn]

I
Well, you can -- that's what the Hyperdeck Shuttle 2.0 is for. You can get fully uncompressed or DNxHD recording, for $345. And the great thing is, no "hack" necessary, so no reliability questions. And you'll also have simultaneous recording so you'll have a backup in case anything were to happen to your recording media.

Thanks Barry. I've been busy working on projects and haven't kept up with the tech stuff. $345 is a great deal. I'm going to look into it. The only issue remains overcrank but, oh well... you can't have everything. That is why I really wanted a bit rate boost. To have that in overcrank.