Financial Point of No Returns with AF100

N

nugat

Well-known member
The body is 5k. How much should I spend on the rest to still keep this investment viable?
After 10 days with the cam and accessories I believe the answer ( for me ) is: 10k total, or 5k on top of the body.
In my case it's two zuikos (14-35/2 and 35-100/2), tripod, manfrotto 521pfi focus control*.
Spending additionally on PL glass , rigs/rails/etc means the setup becomes too expensive (Sony F3/ RED level) to compete.
To me AF100 is a poor man's DOFcam, and that's where it should stay. On sticks, dolly, steadicam--in low budget quickly-made drama (hence varifocal glass), but using big budget selective focus film language. Too awkward (without rigging) for ENG-style mobility**, too limited for network drama; it nicely fills the niche that was before populated with "film" dslrs. Pimping it out for other uses simply will not work. IMHO.
* actually two cams is even a faster setup to do series drama in my experience (2xAF100 make sense)
**even rigged, the DOF will play against it here, 1/2-2/3 inch being so much easier for run'n'gun applications.
 
im not too sure what your asking here. but yes, if you dont have some things for this type of setup, 5000 is fair but depending on your setup and needs you may spend more. i myself have spent maybe around 6000 getting my needed gear to use the af100 in a way i like; nikon manual lenses, follow focus, new sticks(but these were due anyway), memory cards, adapter. i have my rail system so that is costs not spent. basically what im saying is it may seem like a lot because you dont have the gear yet. but once you have it all, and a new body comes out, you will just be buying the body and laughing at the rest; its all relevant. the af100 is perfectly capable of shooting body and lens, but if you require a certain shooting setup then more gear will be needed of course.

and even all rigged out it will not be close to the F3 or red one. the bodies may be close to a rigged out af100, but then where is all of the gear coming from. a full rigged out af100 unit is about 1/2 if not 1/3 the cost with comparable results. rig gear costs will just hurt at the beginning, but down the road it will pay off with any body. poorman is terms of price, but not quality=].
 
Nugat, that sounds like exactly what I am going to do. Only of course you will need some support for the 35-100 lens.

That all sounds good except that I'm not sure if the manfrotto 521pfi focus control will work for rack-focusing the 14-35 and 35-100? Have you tried it yet? Would be a really cool solution if it does...
 
Not really asking anything. These are rethorical questions that everyone answers himself for herself. Or the other way round.
 
Support needed of course. From the lecture the 521pfi should do the trick, waiting for delivery now.


Nityananda_SCSMath said:
Nugat, that sounds like exactly what I am going to do. Only of course you will need some support for the 35-100 lens.

That all sounds good except that I'm not sure if the manfrotto 521pfi focus control will work for rack-focusing the 14-35 and 35-100? Have you tried it yet? Would be a really cool solution if it does...
Click to expand...
 
Cool! So you have heard that the 521pfi will work with the 35-100, very nice option.

.... If you don't mind can you share a little more what "lecture" you heard this in and what they said? Did they demo using an auto-focus lens with te 521 pfi?
 
The "lecture" was that 521 works guaranted eg. with hvx200. There is no reason Panasonic would change the protocol from one body to another. Of course I can be wrong, but then..my company has 2 hvx200 in the worst case. 300$ won't go to waste.
I tell you more interesting thing: Chrosziel has a pro wireless (300 yard) focus control called Alladin. It also controls HVX200 and has a changeover from hirose plug to HVX200 3.5mm+2.5mm plugs. The former controls focus/iris the latter start/stop. Same as AF100.
Now imagine professional focus pulling from the director/DOP 24inch monitor...
Of course there is a price on that, but what would be more worthy an investment on a film DOF camera than a pro focus free of all limitations of the mechanical one?
 
Sounds cool.
I am sure the 521PFI will be compatible with the AF100's input protocol, and probably with the Panasonic 14-140mm lens since it has "video-style" autofocus capabilities. What I am not sure about is if the Olympus 4/3 photo-lens will be able to be smoothly racked from one focus point to another using the 521PFI, which was more designed for use with 1/3" camcorders with integrated video lenses. I am crossing my fingers that it will work but but I'd like to know before I spend all this money... I don't have 2 HVX200's :)
 
As the total price of any job increases, the day rate of the camera becomes less significant and the extraordinarily low price of the AF100 (and DSLR cameras), makes their contribution to the job cost virtually invisible. Bear in mind that the AF100 day-rate is less than a single crew member!

As soon as the crew size exceeds the two or three and the supporting packages go much beyond hand-held, still lenses, and available light, the price advantage of the AF100 disappears and it must earn it's living on it's inherent merits; compact size, light-weight, fantastic lens adaptability, built-in filters, etc.

For practical purposes, what difference does the higher day-rate of a Red make in a 40K job? Zip. How about 20K? Still not very important. Get down to a few thousand, and the difference commands respect; enter the AF100's playground.

Send out a couple of guys or a one-man-band and a tripod and the AF100 really sings. I'll be very interested to see how this little camera integrates into the Crews Control world. Show up, shoot, and hand off a relatively cheap SD card along with the invoice.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
 
Last edited:
One more thought; this is already happening in the Red world, but I can easily imagine the AF100 being offered at "no charge" along with an owner-operator's day rate. This is not so shocking if we think about other trades; carpenters don't charge for their hammers. Yeah, I know, hammers are a lot cheaper than cameras, but you get the idea.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
 
Both supply side and demand side actors are rational, both want to maximize their profits. Out of this game a balance is struck. Once a while a paradigm-changing factor appears: the machine gun, Ford T, Leica M3. For a period of time the game becomes non-zero-sum.
Is AF100 the paradigm shaker? How long it'll take Sony to put out the NX real s35 sensor product?

Ticheli said:
As the total price of any job increases, the day rate of the camera becomes less significant and the extraordinarily low price of the AF100 (and DSLR cameras), makes their contribution to the job cost virtually invisible. Bear in mind that the AF100 day-rate is less than a single crew member!

As soon as the crew size exceeds the two or three and the supporting packages go much beyond hand-held, still lenses, and available light, the price advantage of the AF100 disappears and it must earn it's living on it's inherent merits; compact size, light-weight, fantastic lens adaptability, built-in filters, etc.

For practical purposes, what difference does the higher day-rate of a Red make in a 40K job? Zip. How about 20K? Still not very important. Get down to a few thousand, and the difference commands respect; enter the AF100's playground.

Send out a couple of guys or a one-man-band and a tripod and the AF100 really sings. I'll be very interested to see how this little camera integrates into the Crew Control world. Show up, shoot, and hand off a relatively cheap SD card along with the invoice.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
Click to expand...
 
For me the point of no return is all determined by how much the camera can make you. I've used the DVX100, the HVX100 and now I'll use the AF100. I'll still bring in over six figures no matter what the camera. I have a lot of cash stuck into all the extra gear it takes on a shoot, the camera is just a small part of that. I've paid for all three camera's many times over. This camera will be paid for after the first shoot I do in January.
 
Ticheli said:
One more thought; this is already happening in the Red world, but I can easily imagine the AF100 being offered at "no charge" along with an owner-operator's day rate. This is not so shocking if we think about other trades; carpenters don't charge for their hammers. Yeah, I know, hammers are a lot cheaper than cameras, but you get the idea.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
Click to expand...

I have already adapted this model in my market to stay competitive Leo. I swim in a very small pond with what seems like more and more fish arriving here each day. I made the decision 2 years ago when things were looking down, to include all gear including camera light & grip as an added value. Most of what I do now can be handled by myself. If I need crew we have an excellent freelance pool locally. The AF100 looks to be a great little tool for knocking out quality TV spots with a minimal investment, and I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on the little back-ordered sob.

All the Best!

Dave
 
D10S said:
For me the point of no return is all determined by how much the camera can make you. I've used the DVX100, the HVX100 and now I'll use the AF100. I'll still bring in over six figures no matter what the camera. I have a lot of cash stuck into all the extra gear it takes on a shoot, the camera is just a small part of that. I've paid for all three camera's many times over. This camera will be paid for after the first shoot I do in January.
Click to expand...

Ditto!
 
nugat said:
The "lecture" was that 521 works guaranted eg. with hvx200. There is no reason Panasonic would change the protocol from one body to another. Of course I can be wrong, but then..my company has 2 hvx200 in the worst case. 300$ won't go to waste.
I tell you more interesting thing: Chrosziel has a pro wireless (300 yard) focus control called Alladin. It also controls HVX200 and has a changeover from hirose plug to HVX200 3.5mm+2.5mm plugs. The former controls focus/iris the latter start/stop. Same as AF100.
Now imagine professional focus pulling from the director/DOP 24inch monitor...
Of course there is a price on that, but what would be more worthy an investment on a film DOF camera than a pro focus free of all limitations of the mechanical one?
Click to expand...
Will it have hard stops that correspond to where the lens stops are? Is it absolutely repeatable, in a way that when I mark the ring and line it up, it's ALWAYS going to the same focus?

I'm a noob, but I can't imagine any pro pulling focus by looking at a monitor during the shot. They may want to check the monitor during a pre-shoot walkthrough, but doing so live during a shot sounds a lot less reliable than standing on a 90 degree line so you can visually track the distance from the camera to the subject, see the talent's marks, and so on.

Am I missing something obvious? - Tim
 
You are missing nothing. Af100 is a poor man's Alexa. It is cheap and delivers what it's worth. If you need 1st AC , 2nd AC, pre-shoot walkthroughs etc etc, you obviously can afford the Alexa proper. As somebody noticed above the cost of camera itself becomes negligible with the growing pro crew.
 
Last edited:
Ticheli said:
As the total price of any job increases, the day rate of the camera becomes less significant and the extraordinarily low price of the AF100 (and DSLR cameras), makes their contribution to the job cost virtually invisible. Bear in mind that the AF100 day-rate is less than a single crew member!

As soon as the crew size exceeds the two or three and the supporting packages go much beyond hand-held, still lenses, and available light, the price advantage of the AF100 disappears and it must earn it's living on it's inherent merits; compact size, light-weight, fantastic lens adaptability, built-in filters, etc.

For practical purposes, what difference does the higher day-rate of a Red make in a 40K job? Zip. How about 20K? Still not very important. Get down to a few thousand, and the difference commands respect; enter the AF100's playground.

Send out a couple of guys or a one-man-band and a tripod and the AF100 really sings. I'll be very interested to see how this little camera integrates into the Crews Control world. Show up, shoot, and hand off a relatively cheap SD card along with the invoice.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
Click to expand...

Words from a working person. I like.

And I agree.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top