filmman launches GOLD DIGGERS on KickStarter.com

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And all versions of student software comes with the same thing. But honestly no one's going to drop the kind of money being dropped for stuff then be told how to use it. And at the same time these companies create this stuff with more and more professional add ons because they know people are using these cameras for professional uses. Check out the Cannons. These are hold overs from days when pro equipment and consumer equipment didn't cross paths. But now it happens all the time. And everyone on DVXU who buys an Panny HCM150, JVC HM100, Sony or Canon camcorder or DSLR is being it for professional purposes under the guise they can use it because they bought it. Simple as that.

Now if the argument is that there's a conspiracy to suddenly sue everyone whose made pro features or does pro work with these cameras, the defense would be too easy. You could argue misrepresentation (they represent many of these cameras as "prosumer" meaning suitable for professional work and the amount of pro work down with these make it a perfect argument) or basic unconscionability. Basically unconscionability means if you get into any contract, in this case buy something then find out the terms are "grossly unfair" (such as buying a video camera then being told you can't video with it as you please) then the court would simply toss it out as being unenforceable or flagrantly unfair. We learned about this kind of thing in entertainment law, but you can find more about it online under "unconscionability" or "voidable contracts". There's all kinds of things about contracts, like did you know a judge can't force an entertainer to perform, even if contracted, you can only sue if they don't. Things like that.

Here's an example, right now I don't think ANY Canon comes without 24p now except the standard def cameras. 24p HD is used mainly by student and indy filmmakers, but what student filmmaker will stop to read the manual and go, "Oh, I can't make my feature that I bought this camera to make. Okay, cool." Most people assume: I've bought a video camera, I'll film what I want. Most people don't even read the manual unless they get stuck.

Now the company sees this and has two options. "We'll force them to used the camera the way we want them to." or they say "Well, we know what this groups wants so we'll add more that feature(s) so you will buy our camera." You in return do just that. They look at the cash piling up, the next version has more pro features. The HR10 has 24p, but no mic jack. That became a problem for indy filmmakers for obvious reasons. The HG10 does have one + 24p and the works and these are still selling second hand. They still have a value. You can use this camera to shoot a feature. I added my Beachtek now I had XLR capabilities. The HR10 doesn't have nearly the same value simply because it has no mic-jack.

Sony is the best example. They weren't interested in the 24p/film schoo/indy filmmaker market, they simply didn't add 24p to their cameras. (And people didn't buy). Sure the Sony lovers bought, but a lot of other people bought Panasonics and Canons. I would've tried to buy an Sony FX100 if it did 24p. Sony was so adamant about it they tried to trick people via a horrible faux 24p mode. They'd rather do anything than add 24p to a prosumer camera and now many prosumer Sonys have 24p. It's a money thing.

Apple, Sony and Adobe say, "Oh, they're using these for pro-work now. Okay so we'll add more features to our software to stay current." Basically this is only a technicality. Canon, Sony nor Panasonic expect you to abide by that and their own actions show that. They would never shoot themselves in the foot that way as the major market for 24p is indy filmmakers. At the same time I suppose they could use that to stop someone whom they didn't want to make a film from making a film if they took them to court but again, they'd shoot themselves in the foot. Besides, if Canon wanted to sue, they wouldn't sue me or you, they'd sue the makers of Crank2 who used their cameras to make a big screen film and profited from it. BUT THIS IS WHAT THEY WANT! After seeing Crank2, I made the decision then and there to go with Canon! The look of the film did it for me. This is a "Canon" look I've seen before actually and I like it.

If film-schoolers didn't fall in love with FCP in school or wherever then they risk that you may stop using it. When you come into money, what do you do? Upgrade. You buy everything! I'm shooting on an HG10, since I like Canon, Panasonic, JVC or Sony (I like their look) it's a good chance I'll upgrade to their new models and buy the whole FCP suite versus FCX.

Believe me Adobe, Apple nor any of these companies expect that you will buy FCP, Photoshop or whatever as a student and not use it professionally. Students don't have money and need to make it. You ever notice even student editions have upgrade paths? You ever know anyone to get sued for this? No. Because the companies get paid regardless. They just want you to buy, versus getting a cracked version for cheap or free. Student and Pro versions offer upgrade paths, cracked versions don't. You get support with any real version, but not with cracked versions. It's really nothing to worry about and these companies aren't stupid. Don't you think if it were a big deal these companies would simply make it where nothing could be output without "student edition" on it.

-Nate
 
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Nathyn wrote:
Believe me Adobe, Apple nor any of these companies expect that you will buy FCP, Photoshop or whatever as a student and not use it professionally.
You explained it well, Nate. I never thought about it like that, but I think you're right.

This is why I'm going to continue shooting 35mm whenever I can, because ultimately it's the only way to do professional work and maintain a viable library of films.

I'm going to shoot my Kickstarter movie in 35mm regardless if it gets funded or not. Thanks for the excellent analysis of digital philosophy. It's important to keep in mind what are the most cost effective ways of using digital acquisition equipment.
 
This is why I'm going to continue shooting 35mm whenever I can, because ultimately it's the only way to do professional work and maintain a viable library of films.

If you want to shoot 35 no one's against that, but do it as an aesthetic. Most of the reasons you list for not shooting digital don't add up. You simply like 35mm film and we can all get on aboard that, but how can you say 35mm is "the only way to do professional work and maintain a viable library of films" when in 2010 that's not really accurate when others are doing just that. And if you want to shoot 35 fine, but you should use the technology when it's there to be used. There's no reason not to shoot your Kickstarter reel on HD (or even good DV) and start the project when you get the money.

-Nate
 
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Nate, I get the feeling (it's a sinking feeling :-) that the digital camera manufacturers are trying to destroy the indie filmmakers by introducing bogus cameras. These bug-riddled silicon chips surrounded by cheap plastic will end up the filmmaker costing a fortune in editorial and encoding headaches that ultimately cannot be solved. The camera and editing technology changes several times within a year. You edit a 1080i60i movie today (which is supposed to be HiDef 1920x1080) and then you're told, oh, that's not really HD; for "full HD" you must buy this camera (which is only $1000 more) and you will end up with a 24p (like 24 frames per second). The as soon as you buy this camera, you are told, uh, the 24p doesn't mean it's 24 frames per second, there is another one that shoots 24pA. Then you buy that and then you're told, oh, you got to buy the 24pN if you really want to end up with 24p; but that's not really true, it's really 23.976 fps and to get true 24 fps, you must shoot it with P2 memory.... meanwhile you're into camera for $55,000 already.

Then you have the online/offline BS. Oh, you can shoot HD but you have to go to a post house for online so the "colorist" can do this and that and so the Post House will use Teranex to encode your movie -- otherwise it won't look like the studio's HD, the ones you rent on DVD. Uh, why did I invest another $15,000 in computers and editing software then?

I know one editor who told he spent $50k to $75 (he couldn't remember anymore) just on plugins for FCP to make digital look like film.

Ok, I admit shooting my Sony Z1 makes it very convenient to shoot something now and put it up on Youtube in one hour (after editing and encoding a 2 minute piece, so it plays without the spinning ball). I will continue to use digital (even SD) to audition actors or something that's unrehearsed -- a happening of some kind.

But if I'm going to have to spend more than $5,000 to re-create reality or tell a story, why would I want to shoot on digital and pay all that money in post and lose total control to a digital editor, a post house or someone else who manages to get hold of the digital files somehow? I'm talking as a filmmaker now. If you as a filmmaker know how to keep everything under wraps, that's great. I can't do that. If I send my film somewhere for mastering, how do I know if they're not making a copy for themselves?

With 35mm film, I get the film from the lab, I make a work print or telecine and I put the 35mm camera negative away for safekeeping. When I send my movie out to be considered for distribution or outright sale, I sell an SD DVD copy of the movie so nobody has my 35mm negative in their hands for one split second after it's been edited and cut into 35mm printing reels.

You have a library of 35mm films, you have something viable. Digital is great to practice with and shoot stuff for TV, advertising, etc.

Just my 2 cents worth.LOL
 
Why are you getting side-railed about video vs. film and H.264 and Fellini? Stop worrying about this inconsequential crap and start taking advantage of the generous advice that has been given to you. If you're the one designing these posters, STOP. Hire someone who will give you something that'll blow the doors off. Alter your concept to be appealing, not dry. Take your little DV or H.264 cam and shoot something compelling about why people should band together to give you 25,000! For the time you took to write about 35mm film, you could have been drafting out an "About This Project" piece to use on the site.

You've only got 46 days left, and every second your page is up on Kickstarter looking like it is now there are an untold number of people who are bored immediately and click on something else.
 
Subtleinspiration wrote: Take your little DV or H.264 cam and shoot something compelling about why people should band together to give you 25,000!
That's a movie right there. I have to spend $1,200 to repair my car's water pump and a few other things so I can go out and shoot. When I go out and shoot, if I'm out there for more than 4 hours, I come back with a feature film in the can.

I know you don't want to hear about felliniesque, but that's what I'm all about. My movies are what I see and what I capture. The whole Kickstarter thing has been a kick in the pants for me so far. LOL

But I like your point about the poster. I love to do posters, but they don't come out right the first few times. That's just how I work. ... If I could only get out there... Ah, I need my wheels!
 
You should watch the Zacuto Shootout on DSLR's.
Pretty impressive stuff.

All of us would love to shoot on 35mm film, but the costs (no matter how you look at it) far exceeds any digital solution available. If you have the means to shoot 35mm and keep up with the costs with no funding, go for it. We all wish we could do the same, but since we can't we shoot with what we can afford instead of sitting around doing absolutely nothing but talking about why we can't shoot on 35mm.

Also, think about who your audience is. I'm not an "expert" on cameras and all the tech jargon behind it. I just know what looks aesthetically pleasing to my eye. 35mm will always be king, but to the consumer, these images will be near identical to them.

I showed my wife some 35mm footage and the same footage from one of the new DSLR's she watched it like 10 times, and all I could get was "What are you trying to get me to see.. they look the same?".

If your shooting on 35mm because you prefer it, and enjoy working with it.. thats cool. But, I wouldn't go as far as you did by saying that these digital camera's are just for "practice" and not viable for anything professional. They are, and have been for a while.

Good luck with your project!
 
If your shooting on 35mm because you prefer it, and enjoy working with it.. thats cool. But, I wouldn't go as far as you did by saying that these digital camera's are just for "practice" and not viable for anything professional. They are, and have been for a while.

Amen!!
 
If you're concerned about quality and staying legal, recording via HD/SDI to a KI Pro (ProRes) would fit the bill. For editing, ProRes is a better format anyway.
 
Look, if filmman can and wants to film on 35mm, more power to him. Why must you people keep cluttering this thread with nonsense? Let's keep it focused here.
 
I don't think anyone doesn't want Filmman to shoot 35mm, in fact many have been very much behind him shooting on 35mm, but some of his reasoning for not shooting digital are simply not on the level. At this point in the game, there's all kinds of workflows and nothing stops him from accomplishing what he wants to digitally except he simply wants to shoot 35. Which is fine.

I think the issue is people are simply saying if you want to shoot 35mm then that's fine but don't say you're shooting 35mm because the digital technology isn't capable, because at this level it's been proven to be more than capable. And most time if you don't tell someone a film was shot on HD, they generally don't know. Basically it sounds like a cop out. And the idea of doing Fellini style filmmaking is fine, but if you want people to consider your work it has to be packaged professionally. We know he has a video camera and can shoot a quick vid to entice people to give, but he simply refuses under the guise of he could be shooting a film in the time taken to shoot the Kick Starter promo, to which my answer would be, "No you can't, you don't have a budget. That's why you created a KS in the first place." Or "If you can shoot a film in that time get off KS and go shoot a movie."

Basically people actually want to see him make a film and get it out and it's not like he's dropping the ball, he just simply refuses to pick it up. And again I have to mention a lot of people here actually would prefer to shoot 35mm just like him (I don't think I'll ever go back to film but others love it) and would never advise him not to, they simply want to point out that some of the excuses he gives for not aren't particularly valid. His latest thing being the license agreement thing, which even the company acknowledges to be generally unenforceable. He seem to always be looking for the next new reason to not shoot digital when the only reason needed is, "I really love 35mm film." You can't argue with that. On the flipside there's no reason to not shoot and upload a KS proof of concept type thingy on his DV/HDV camera to show the people you're asking for money that you actually have a great concept and they should give you money. This is pretty standard and not a lot to ask. Most people aren't just sitting back thinking, "How can I throw my money away."

-Nate
 
I'm glad you guys talked about Kickstarter. I'm definately looking into it now for the second part of my next feature where I may need some financing. I plan to go and check out filmman's version of the marketing in a moment.

Ok, just checked it out. I'm confused is this for Gold Diggers OR Woman at the Well?
 
My question is what happened to "Gold Diggers". It's now "Woman at the Well" which sounds like it could be be a Bible based story that could get funded, but we're met with more low quality art and know nothing about it except the one line description "the story of the woman at the well". I guess in some way that description could work, but when we click the link we get those same chicks on the beach talking about mad randomness. There's a possibility this could catch on based on someone connected with a big Church or Christian institution sees it and may want to make it happen, again it's not the stories in themselves as much as the same lack of effort in promoting it that's seen in every project.

On the flipside my projects haven't been Oscar-worthy, but I try by best to give people a reason to buy or support me. I think we're all curious as to why Filmman doesn't seem to think it's important to make people care about his project. Some of the things that need to be done can be done economically and easily.

-Nate
 
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Filmman doesn't seem to think it's important to make people care about his project. Some of the things that need to be done can be done economically and easily.

D&mn Nate you got your harsh robe on today on Filmman. Filmman has been like this since I fist met him 2 years ago. You can't convince him to go Digital - I tried. It doesn't work. It's poetic irony that he gets most of his advice from a Digital Forum. I mean the DVX in DVXuser is for a digital camera. :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

Anyhoo, Filmman I think you should rework everything you have starting with an interview of yourself saying why people should support you. I think you should come up with a more commercial idea whether it be Christian based or Urban.

But what do I know better than anyone else. Zak is who you should be listening to, he's the one whose worked on the larger DVXuser projects and understands the ins and outs of the indie world better than anyone on the site.

Unfortunately, from what you have currently put up, Filmman, I have to be honest and say that if I didn't know you and you were trying to get my money I probably wouldn't give it to you. Your whole page on kickstarters seems abrupt and harsh - "I'll only shoot 35" and then you make a debate about it. Don't debate when you're asking for money. You could simply say "I have the resources to shoot 35mm and we hope to shoot this feature with 35mm." and end it with that. What if Peter Jackson cam through and said "I'll help a few people, I used to be where they are." and he saw your board, he'd be turned off and wouldn't give you anything. Safe bet is that it's easy to offend people, don't try to intentionally put yourself into any one boat, especially in a way that forces others into the opposite boat.
 
D&mn Nate you got your harsh robe on today on Filmman. Filmman has been like this since I fist met him 2 years ago. You can't convince him to go Digital - I tried. It doesn't work. It's poetic irony that he gets most of his advice from a Digital Forum. I mean the DVX in DVXuser is for a digital camera. :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

The bigger irony is even though this is a digital camcorder site we're not even trying to convince him to go digital, just produce better marketing elements for his films. I have to pointed out Zak as the go to guy in this department and Zak did indeed chime in and help out a page or so ago.

-Nate
 
A lot of good stuff here. I have to admit Brandon is right when he said on the NGL thread that all criticism is good. Even though we don't agree on details, it's how we evaluate those details that makes us look like we're in disagreement.

So we may disagree on the preference or even characteristics of film and digital; but when the images are good, regardless of the capturing medium, the result is a nice looking movie.

My sadness is over how it's easy for young filmmakers or starting filmmakers to neglect the value of 35mm. If Adam had shot Corrado on 35mm he would have had a theatrical screening of his movie -- which would have added to the value of his movie in the market place. I pointed this out to him early on in the thread. Toward the end of the thread he stated that the distributor asked him for $60,000 to do a 35mm blow-up. Adam asked his investors and they said no. In another post later Adam said he will shoot the next movie in 35mm. I knew why. If his budget was $750,000 (it started as $300,000 but went up as he got more name actors in the movie), then an additional $25,000 for film stock and lab would not have been excessive; but at the end when the investors wanted to see their money come back to them, the $60,000 for the blow-up didn't make sense. As a result Corrado did not sell in major territories (as of my last reading) such as the UK, German, Japan -- all of which pay from $100,000 to $300,000 per territory each. I could be wrong, but that's what I feel happened.

Again, with DOS, Faith was offered a sound mix that would normally cost $300,000 (as stated in the DOS thread) and she began to prepare the reels into ten parts with the proper transitions for the reel changes of 35mm printing requirement. She dropped this discussion and now is doing the multiple language dialogue lists and translations for foreign language DVD requirements.

It's a good idea to make a 35mm master of DOS because it looks like it will be enormously popular all over the world. But DOS is a Zero budget movie and if some company provides a 35mm blow up on spec, then the distributors will have to pay that out of first revenues. That goes for the $300,000 mix if the movie makes $20,000,000 or so. It's zero budget until the profits are in the millions, then suddenly everyone involved will be saying, "Wait a minute, we thought you meant: I'll take care of you at the back end." Again, this is my opinion.

Whoever makes a multi million dollar movie shooting on digital protects themselves by making a 35mm master. I can see if there are a lot of effects that can only be achieved practically in CGI, then obviously it's best to shoot in digital (like with a Sony top of the line camera or now the Arri Alexa -- by the way they named this camera after me because I've put in so much time in DVX user's forum -- LOL -- just kidding; I get a lot of great advise from filmmakers here.)

So, it is true, 35mm is cheaper ... and easier for me ... personally; but that's also because I have unlimited access to film stock and 35mm camera equipment. Also I know the technology best of all.

For my digital projects, such as THE RED QUEEN and THE CHASE BY VIC ALEXANDER, I liked using my Sony Z1. I really love the camera whenever I go out there without any specific idea in my head and suddenly find something worthwhile to shoot. So I need to learn how to use digital technology just to be able to shoot and edit my own digital productions.

Also, I might end up doing a feature with a lot of experimental visual elements -- I might even look into the Nikon 3D camera.

Thanks for the advise Azmyth. I enjoyed the Zacuto Shootout 2010 video clip. The DSLR's are very exciting.


And I might like to work with ProRes -- I'd have to buy an Intel Chip Mac though, so I don't know at this point. But ...
Zeke wrote: If you're concerned about quality and staying legal, recording via HD/SDI to a KI Pro (ProRes) would fit the bill. For editing, ProRes is a better format anyway.
Thank you for that note.

All in all I really appreciate the points raised regarding my Kickstarter effort. I will definitely take all the advise very seriously. Nate understands me well, and I must admit I understand Nate also. I think we have a different personality. Nate is clear and precise; I'm ... well, felliniesque :-) I like to experiment and muddle through -- at this late stage in my career as an artist ... and hopeless romantic. I really enjoy filmmaking and though it take time for me to learn things, I do enjoy discourse and experimentation ... and friendship.

jls4 wrote: Anyhoo, Filmman I think you should rework everything you have starting with an interview of yourself saying why people should support you. I think you should come up with a more commercial idea whether it be Christian based or Urban.

If I were in Atlanta, I'd ask you to shoot the interview.

Nate wrote: My question is what happened to "Gold Diggers". It's now "Woman at the Well" which sounds like it could be be a Bible based story that could get funded, but we're met with more low quality art and know nothing about it except the one line description "the story of the woman at the well".

It was Gold Diggers, then it was Gold Digger at the Well, the it became The Woman at the Well -- and, yes, it's the story of the Samaritan woman. She was a gold digger, wasn't she? Maybe you're right; with the right poster a story from the New Testament might be easier to fund.
 
lol! No kidding! For what it's worth, I think it's great you're shooting on film. Not my cup of tea, though I did actually consider it. Good luck sir!
 
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