Feeling Really Discouraged

andythefilmer

andythefilmer

Veteran
I've owned my HPX170 for almost a year now, having owned a DVX for close to 3 years prior. I have done a but of doc work with it and have been working on music videos a little more recently now. However, yesterday, I began day one of a music video shoot for an artist. Did the first two shots on the 170 and he immediately called off the whole shoot. Why? Because the background wasn't out of focus enough. My crew and I did everything in our power to get the shallowest depth of field before hand - we had the iris open all the way, had the subject close (probably zoomed in to about 35mm) and the background elements as far away as possible.

Is it even worth keeping this camera now if it's gonna ruin a job like this? The guy I shot for was very set in his ways and compared my shots to those of his last video (shot on a RED), but are more people like this to come? Is it worth selling my camera/batteries/2 32GB P2's and then invest in like an AF100 rig? I need something better than a DSLR rig for the other stuff I shoot.. Any thoughts? Would an M3 be a better investment?
 
Rather than abandoning a good camera, why don't you get a GH2 and a 50mm Canon1.8 FD lens (or similar) to deal with these type situations. The GH2 can get you the shallow DOF in these type situations at a cheap price. I think this would enhance you capability.
 
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Sounds to me like the guys an idiot. Why would he hire out a dp with an hpx 170 rig then compare it to a red? Thats like ordering a fish sandwich at Mc Donalds, then complaining it doesn't taste like lobster. Duhhh, It sounds like you did what you could to get a shallow dof. Plus i'm guessing the red package was a heck of a lot more per day. You can't please everyone all the time, all you can do is try. and you did. Just make sure you bill him for your time, it's not your fault he didn't do his homework

I think Mark has the right idea, get a gh2 to go with it. Your cam is great for key work, and audio. Not to mention the lots of other features you will never get in a dslr. Although if you can afford a fs100, then maybe go that route.
 
I've eked out a little more shallowness from small-chip camcorders by using closeup diopters, tele-converters, wide adapters and then just getting very close, but shallow focus just isn't their schtick until you dive into the fuss of 35mm adapters.

In the future, you may want to thoroughly discuss the client's expectations well before the shoot, and then work a camera rental into your quote if their requirements exceed your camera's capabilities. GH2, AF100, or 5D packages are fairly easy to source given enough lead time.
 
Ha, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I bet the RED guy pointed out the shallow DOF when he was selling him on his footage and now he thinks that is all that matters. If he wants a RED look he needs to pay for a RED look. Could do it on a DSLR but then he'll complain it doesn't look like a movie camera!
 
Hey Andy!

Don't get discouraged and don't go off and sell your 170.

You will never get the exact same image texture/subtlety/feel from a small sensor as you will from a large one. Not better, not worse, just NOT THE SAME!

I know it's been said a million times, but let's make it one more.... The Right Tool For The Right Job!

Things good as they are right now, I can get anything; RED, Varicam, C300, etc.

What I have found in the 170 is a camera that will boldy go and get the perfect shot in places where its bigger brothers can not or will not go without a lot of overhead, risk or the sheer inability to cope with the fluid environments I'm in.

This is not saying there is anything wrong with a big chip camera.

Yet at Beaver Hill even the humble GoPro has helped weave stories to new heights.

Andy, you may find that in the end an AF100, a C300 or a RED or whatever other cool stuff is being schlepped on us, may be in your immediate future. I say good! One more tool in your box.

I however, would third the GH2 suggestion made here. Take a look into the Gh2 some good support and filtration options and a few great lenses specific to your shooting styles. You may find the perfect solution. And if not. No worse for the wear.

We currently have a GH2 kit in here and its non hacked 24p looks fabulous on our HD broadcast! Absolutely amazing in fact!

Do what you need to do to either educate or service your clients but think twice before you sell it or get too down on yourself....don't throw away your good Phillips screwdrivers just because somebody who doesn't know better thinks you need a Flathead. hehehehe

Keep it going Andy!!!!
 
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I have an HPX170 that has gotten very little use this past 6 months as I have been exploring the AF100.

The HPX is coming back out this week to shoot a live dance concert. The AF100 takes great pictures, but the shallow DOF is a real DISADVANTAGE when shooting in a dynamic scene where your focus will be always changing.

I'll continue to use the AF100 in more controlled situations. For this shoot, it's going to do a wide shot while the tighter images will come from the HPX170.

I agree....different jobs need different tools.
 
another vote for keeping the 170 for ENG/event use and just buying a GH2 for "DOF" junkies.
there are several things a CMOS DSLR just cant do as well as your CCD 170

i hope you dont run into any moire issues with that 7D. (watch out for auto grills, fine patterned clothes and roof shingles!)
i tried all the leading DSLRs and found the GH2 the best mix of fewest problems and best image.
 
Geeze, my HVX200a (with letus ofcourse) still does 6 out of 10 music videos I shoot! there is something about the look you get from the camera, not to mention how much post it can take!

Don't get me wrong I love shooting on DSLR's too, especially if the budget is low. They're great, but I'm still very much in love with my HVX200! (with the letus, he he)

- Derrick
 
The guy that called of the shoot is the artist?

Paid gig? Well if so he could expect to get my invoice for the whole two days.

Free gig? Guy needs a kick in the ass for treating people who volunteered to help him like this.
 
This almost feels like a joke post just to drive crazy those here who so dislike video dslrs! Here's my two cents. Our large sensor cameras work a lot more than the hvx200 these days, and yet, time and time again, I'm so glad to have the HVX in the arsenal. I think it would be great if you could keep both the 170 and find your way to a hacked GH2 and a couple of solid pieces of legacy glass (50mm to start). That's a powerful mix.
 
Quick thought -- in a dodgy, limited and often labour-intensive way, you can of course simulate shallow depth of field in post. Andrew Kramer has a tutorial about it. From vague memory, it involved using lens blur on an adjustment layer, then tying that adjustment layer to a track matte (made by using a feathered mask on a solid). A bit of motion was added to the track matte to simulate pulling focus. If you had to keep focus on a whole person, you might have to go down the route of rotoscoping the person from the background...
 
I have a feeling you'll be back on here with more problems from this knuckle head. That's just based on my experience.
 
Andy- you could always get the wides on the HPX (much better than on the 7D) and the shallow DOF CUs on the 7D, and yes, maybe save for a GH2?
 
Knucklehead? Kick in the ass? Come on guys! This is the client, he saw that he wasn't getting what he wanted, and stopped. We don't know anything about what his attitude was, what he was told up front, what any of the arrangements were. I find it disturbing that many of you are so quick to attack the client. Really, he should accept something that's not what he wants?
 
andythefilmer said:
Do you feel upgrading to a GH2 is worth it when I already own a 7D and a decent lens arsenal?
Click to expand...

Andy - I think you've found a solution that works. If you need to avoid the 7D's moire and overheating issues, you have the 170. If you need shallow DoF, you have the 7D. I am a GH2 shooter myself, but if money and your investment in EOS glass are issues, keep the 7D. In my view, every pro who can afford it should have both a small sensor camcorder and a large sensor camcorder or DSL in their kit bag on every shoot.

It's not just shallow DoF - I recently heard a story about a pro XA10/GH2 shooter who showed up with the XA10 and left his GH2 at home that day. You guessed it - the client wanted video and stills. This is why your HPX/7D combo is so useful. You've got a small sensor camcorder that produces great video with great ergonomics, you have a pro still camera, and you can produce shallow DoF video in a pinch.

In my humble opinion, people who find success in business are those who give the customer what they want - even when the customer doesn't know what they want, or can't clearly articulate it -- and you did that. Congratulations and best of luck with your business.

Bill
 
brunerww said:
I recently heard a story about a pro XA10/GH2 shooter who showed up with the XA10 and left his GH2 at home that day. You guessed it - the client wanted video and stills.
Click to expand...

I don't know if this is the same situation or not, but I had a client who saw that I had a Canon DSLR (I was shooting his videos with a HPX-170) and at 8pm the night before a shoot, he had his secretary send me an e-mail asking me to bring my Canon to shoot photos with. Since that was never mentioned as part of the shoot up until this point, and I knew there wouldn't be any extra payment involved, I didn't bring it. It was never brought up on the shoot either, so very odd.

I've done stills/video before and it's a gigantic PITA. I strongly advise not to advertise that as a strong suit of shooting with DSLRs unless you are prepared to ask for more payment to make it worth the hassle.
 
I think I agree with brunerww, especially if you're comfortable with the 7D and workarounds for its weaknesses.
You do have a good lens collection going, but only you know if you've been badly stung by the Canon's moire, recording limit or overheating issues.
A GH2 is food for thought, that's all...

But perhaps most importantly, you learned a lesson on managing client expectations, which involves yes, learning what the client wants even when they don't know. But certainly questions (especially for someone in a band who has either done or seen videos of a certain look) like "do you have any sort of look in mind, if so what?" "Any examples?" "What feel?" etc. help you get on the same page... before the camera's rolling!

Good luck!
 
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