Feature Film With $15,000

DavidBeier said:
For recording format, I'm gonna suggest you wait for the cineporter which will cost the same as a FS-100 but let you use Native mode with it's 2.5 times more space and variable frame rates (also holds 160 gigs). You can also just get a $1000 laptop and record to that instead of the FS-100. It'll cost less and apparently some of the new capturing applications will let you do native mode in the future. You can also get a P2 store and hot swap cards if you have assistant.
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To clarify, you will never-ever be able to record native mode through the DV port because in native mode, no data is sent to the DV port.

What you can do (and this is probably what David meant) is that a program or device capturing the DV stream will be able to determine which frames are duplicates, and eliminate the duplicates from the file that is recorded to disk. Serious Magic's DVC Rack does this.
 
Primer (big winner at Sundance a couple of years ago) was shot on film for about $7000. Equipment (except for a homebrew car mount) was rented, and parents did the catering.

Of course, the director spent about a year beforehand getting the script right. And every scene was rehearsed about 20 times before shooting. (!)
 
THoff said:
To clarify, you will never-ever be able to record native mode through the DV port because in native mode, no data is sent to the DV port.

What you can do (and this is probably what David meant) is that a program or device capturing the DV stream will be able to determine which frames are duplicates, and eliminate the duplicates from the file that is recorded to disk. Serious Magic's DVC Rack does this.
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Thanks for the clarification and yes that's what I meant.
 
I'm Back

I'm Back

Sorry guys, I was away and had no access to a comp. I was overwhelemed by all your responses, most of which helped, here are some answers to help clarify my situation:

As far as talent and catering are concered....my friends are the talent, which takes care of me spending any money on that, sometimes i'll buy them food, but nothing fancy so I've excluded that from the budget.

I go to CalARTS, my school as 16mm cameras, and best DV camera it has is the DVX100, I like 24p, but I also only the Sony HC-1, so I like HD (and thats not even true HD), so to me the HVX is the best synthesis of those two at under $10gs.

Now the film I plan no shooting is going to be shot in a rather guirella fashion, which means I wont be using lighting, and if I do need lighitng I can get that from my school. Secondly, although I have a script, I can't make a definite schedule for two reasons, I can't rely on my friends because they are doing this for free, so there will be times when they are busy and I can't always make them come, so the whole production will take some time, on top of which during the end of september up until late october, I will need to shoot some time-sensitive footage, which I can only get during that month, basically the point is I cant rent the camera, because I'll end up using up more money than just buying it. Also because of the nature of the production, there will be no need for insurance or money for locations. There is no need to argue about the ethics of this as I am well aware of all the pros and cons, but that is how I work, for now...

Where can I get the HVX for $5500? Can I shoot 720 24p with the Cineporter? Is the Cineporter even available, if not when will it be?

THe rest of the money will be used for a tripod (though I think I can get a good one from school), and mics, which I'll need to buy because the school wont lent it out to me for as long as I will need it.

As for renting a DP, due to the nature of my 'scheduling' problems, renting a DP is out of the question.

So I have no choice, I need to buy the camera, I need a comp (MacBook Pro), and I need some storage (hearing about the Cineporter, I'd probably go with that).

Where do we stand?
 
Hambartsum said:
1) As far as talent and catering are concered....my friends are the talent,

2) Now the film I plan no shooting is going to be shot in a rather guirella fashion, which means I wont be using lighting,

3) Secondly, although I have a script, I can't make a definite schedule for two reasons, I can't rely on my friends because they are doing this for free, so there will be times when they are busy and I can't always make them come, so the whole production will take some time, on top of which during the end of september up until late october,
.

4) Where can I get the HVX for $5500? Can I shoot 720 24p with the Cineporter? Is the Cineporter even available, if not when will it be?

5) THe rest of the money will be used for a tripod (though I think I can get a good one from school), and mics, which I'll need to buy because the school wont lent it out to me for as long as I will need it.

6) As for renting a DP, due to the nature of my 'scheduling' problems, renting a DP is out of the question.

7) So I have no choice, I need to buy the camera, I need a comp (MacBook Pro), and I need some storage (hearing about the Cineporter, I'd probably go with that).

Where do we stand?
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Here I go:

1) :eek: Bad idea, unless your friends are a very talented cliche of actors. But nevertheless friends are always a bad idea. You point this out yourself later on.

2) :eek: No lighting?! Bad idea. I just got chills. Although I have not read the script... lighting is ALWAYS important.

3) :eek: No schedule? I don't know what to say to this but good luck getting your locations multiple times and continuity.... I can say you make my first point about friends.

4) Cineporter is not out yet. It will be sold by a Panasonic Authorized dealer Special Communications. This is the prototype pictures but the facts are still accurate: http://www.spec-comm.com/cineporter.php

Glad you asked about the "where under 5,500".... Spec-Comm (mentioned above) is an authorized dealer and sells the HVX for $5,399. But the best part is yet to come: shipping is free, they give you a kickass free battery, and you will also get %10 certificate off the cineporter when released. I bought from them and have absolutely no problems! Shipping was fast (and free), and the staff are so friendly and helpful!

The only bad side... cineporter is due out soon, but there is no date set. I am waiting with anxious hope it will be soon!

5) Use the schools if you can! I would hate to see you pay $1,300 for a nice tripod when you can just use theirs!

6) You say that the scheduling problems prohibits the DP idea.... I would say your NO LIGHTING idea would be the main factor for rendering the DP practically unneeded. :(

7) Do you need a computer? Does your school not have editing stations? You will also need HD editing software and a fast computer if you have no solution. Your best bet is find an editor who owns a fast/loaded computer.
 
I am in the process as a first time, so I know where you are coming from. Sounds like you may do well to read "Featuer Filmmaking at Used Car Prices" by Rick Schmidt. He makes the point its all about being well organized when you are on a shoe string and it sounds like from above you may need a little help in this regard.

You should always compensate the people working on your film, even friends, meaning a small per diem for expenses, food (you don't want people leaving the set to go eat anyway) and deferred payment and profit sharing. The last two meaning if your film should make and money, everyone benefits. (the former off the gross, the latter off the net) This is at a minimum. If your friends are unreliable, then although they may be nice people, don't use them and find actors in your area. (community theatre, colleges ...) Even if it is ultra low budget, keeping it professional with agreements gets a bigger buy in and will help you marshall the forces around you. People won't follow a person who seems like he doesn't have his sh@% together.

The HVX needs light, buy a cheap lighting pakage bc it is better than nothing. Get Barry's book as well so you can get the most out of the camera if you are going to DP yourself, although I wouldn't recommend it. Also figure a way to create redundancy for your data.
 
I would like to second everything =Prodigy= said.

Always strive to do things the right way, and if you can't, strive to make it as close as possible. As many others on this board have suggested, you will be better off spending your budget on: real actors that you can lock in to a schedule; taking care of your crew; art dept; DP; and camera and lighting rentals. Put your money on the screen, not into a huge equipment investment.
 
I don't know what you plan on doing with your feature but if you ever hope to sell it, you're going to need contracts/releases from everyone involved, including your locations. Don't forget these because it's a lot easier to get them up front than after everything is done.
 
It sounds like you either have a very clear idea of what your project is, and will therefore be increasingly disappointed when your lack of schedule sets it behind by months or years; or, your notion of the project is not very clear at all and you need to spend a LOT more time figuring out how to do this on a schedule.

It's possible that you're one of the rare visionaries who knows what they want and is going to do it in the face of all sound advice and it will be brilliant. But very few people are visionaries, and fewer still have the talent and ambition to actually achieve anything with their visions. I think there's good advice being distributed here. You might think about following it.

All that aside, you're making serious miscalculations in your money. You've cast your friends, so you don't have to pay them... okay. Do they have some sort of deal for percentage off the back end? If not, I guess they're just very dumb or realize the project isn't going anywhere, and I wouldn't fault you for taking advantage. Fine. But wait:

sometimes i'll buy them food, but nothing fancy so I've excluded that from the budget.
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You never, ever, ever EXCLUDE something from the budget just because it won't be much! That's how you run out of money and can't finish your project. Imagine even a 10-day shoot, five person crew, four actors. That's about as bare bones as most shoots can get... and that'd run you at least $500 in food and craft services. There's ways around that but you haven't mentioned them.

You say you plan on sending it to festivals... have you budgeted the thousands of dollars it may cost for dubs, submission fees, postage?

Here's what I say: go back to square one and get yourself a producer. Unless you're the sort of person who can afford to throw around $15,000 and a couple wasted months of your life, you'd be looking for trouble otherwise.
 
Hi,
Buy the equipment... why?
1-Your first film will suck anyway...(or, 'kindly' it is a learning process. Those who'll make it big time in their first movie are out there and doing it, and lucky enough to be at the right place at the right time..;))
2- You can put them in use and start paying your student loan back immediately
3-As I say to my clients who are trying to justify their spending on video/photo: After spending 50 grand on that day, Only thing that will stay with you will be the product you are to get from me...
You kow what i mean?!
 
I do think buying the camera is a good idea. Once of course you have done all the requisite pre-production, as we all agree should be done here. when you think about it, renting the camera is going to cost $250/day and depending on the length of the shoot, is going to cost several k. He could buy the camera, have it to run tests with lighting ect. Shoot and unconventional shoot schedule and when all is said and done, sell it here or on ebay for $4500 give or take. (plus p2, same idea)

It may be an expensive lesson, or perhaps, an opportunity to complete a film with quality not up to traditional standards. I have been to a ton of festivals and seen films that were poorly lit, acted an alike. One with some acclaim that had no discernable lighting is called "Cocaine Angel" that has made the rounds. What the definition of success for Hamb may be modest. At the end of the day though, there is a certain level of production that if not done, I think you are shooting yourself in the foot.
 
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I see.....

I see.....

I apologize if I seemed rather pompous in my last post...

It's not that my actors are not reliable, I'm just saying they have a life with school, work, etc.. and there will be days where I simply wont be able to have them....

My schools has lighting kits, so that's not a problem, I'm just not a fan of artifical lighting, using natural light and by natural I'm not talking about just the sun or moon, but lighting that is present in the setting and not put there to sculpt the scene....anyway there are only a few scenes where I will use lighting, actually just one scene that I"m certain I will use artifical lighting, that could change, we'll see.....

Now I have a confession to make and most of you have caught it without realising it by pointing to my lack of organization, I don't have a full script yet, I have a little more than 50% of the script and its just an outline of all the scenes. Basically there is still a lot of work to be done, however I have to be ready by the end of September, not to shoot the whole film, but like I said from the end of September till the end of October I have material to shoot that I wont be able to shoot again, because its time-sensitive, so I need the equipment side of the issue taken care, especially the camera, so I can start fiddling with it at least a couple of weeks before I start shooting, and yes I will be DPing most of it, I might get a friend to come for a few scenes to help me, but I will be doing most of the work. After that critical month I can start taking my time, though I would like to be finished by the end of winter (feb).

I think that you guys are beginning to understand that this isn't a traditional production...Since most of you are used to (I assume) working in a more traditonal way you are unaware of the freedoms one possesses creatively when working so 'liberally' at the same time I work too 'liberally' and need a healthy dose of some conservative ways, which you have helped with and I thank you for that, I'm still all ears....

So, thats it. I just looked at the Cineporter looks rather big, I will be doing some handheld work as well, don't know how it will fare. I've heard there are connections issues with the Firestore when doing handheld work.
 
using natural light for majority of project, using your friends as actors is all possible .... i'm sure you have noticed at film festivals or school screenings normally using friends as actors has STUDENT written all over it .. you live in a area where you have access to real ACTORS and you have access to SAG actors but the choice is yours ( and it will follows you for years to come )


IMO if crew and actors are working for FREE and putting in long hours then you need to FEED them and feed them GOOD !! don't go cheap on food ...

IMO you don't need to buy everything up front ..
for production you need camera ... not so sure you need to buy computer now- you will need some hard drives - your school must have a computer you can use to digitize to your hard drives ? or somebody on your team must have a laptop to transfer files off the p2/hard drives ?? buy/rent only what you need to get the project in the can ... if you buy a camera for the shoot - then sell it at the end and put the $$ back into post production ... your school or somebody you know must have a tripod you can borrow/use ?? but if you must buy then sell it at end of production ...

50% finished scripts has TROUBLE written all over it .. do not go into production with 50% finished ...

IMO there is nothing wrong with using a DVX100 ( your schools) on the project = it will save you $$ (" november " was shoot on dvx100 and it won the sundance cinematograpghy award) ...

you have already made one huge discovery and it just might save your production = "my lack of organization" .. a feature doesn;t get shot without some type of organization - ok you know your fault so get somebody that can organize !!!make sure you have a production manager or 1st AD ... i have seen too many productions fall apart with a one man operation ( producer, director, DP, AD , editor) - get a TEAM .. spread out work - you need TIME for directing !!

spend your 15K wisely and use it as many times as you can ( sell items you bought and put that $$ back into project over and over )
 
donatello makes a good point. You may very well be able to use a camera for a LOT less than renting one, if you buy one, shoot with it and then sell it. Sure, you'll take a loss on the camera but it won't be that big...certainly less than renting for a month or more.

Check out Gorilla by Jungle Software. There is no way you should go into something as big as a feature without some kind of production software....

http://www.junglesoftware.com/

There's three versions: Gorilla Pro for $399, Gorilla Standard for $299 and Gorilla Student for $199. It will be money well spent when it comes to scheduling and organizing your project. It's even got a section for budgeting and tracking costs.
 
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One last piece of advice, especially if you are using novice actors is to have a lot of rehearsal. You don't want to find the performances on set with inexperienced actors. Also, it will allow you to workshop the script and find what works and doesn't, maybe even get some of the blocking down before hand. Lower shoot ratio will also be key in your "guerilla" shoot
 
Now I have a confession to make and most of you have caught it without realising it by pointing to my lack of organization, I don't have a full script yet, I have a little more than 50% of the script and its just an outline of all the scenes. Basically there is still a lot of work to be done, however I have to be ready by the end of September, not to shoot the whole film, but like I said from the end of September till the end of October I have material to shoot that I wont be able to shoot again, because its time-sensitive, so I need the equipment side of the issue taken care, especially the camera, so I can start fiddling with it at least a couple of weeks before I start shooting, and yes I will be DPing most of it, I might get a friend to come for a few scenes to help me, but I will be doing most of the work. After that critical month I can start taking my time, though I would like to be finished by the end of winter (feb).
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You're not my friend Chip are you?
 
First of all, get all your scripting, budgeting, and planning done. This is esential before you decide what equipment you need. Ask anyone who has ever pulled off a mildly ambitious film and they'll tell you good planning is half the game. Have a scheduale. Have EVERYTHING in your budget. I understand if you don't want to pay your cast or crew but you gotta feed these guys if you're going to be shooting during meals. My last film I alternated between buying them food from our school, ordering pizza, and having my girlfriend cook. You gotta keep them fed or they'll be pissed and lazy. You also have to be organized. I can't stess how important this is. If your crew who is working for free feels like you don't know what you are doing and are just dicking around, they aren't gonna bust their asses for you anymore. It's that simple.

Now, as for the matter of equipment, you have the good luck to be going to a school that provides it. Ultimatly, it's going to depend on what you want to get from your school or friends, and what you want to buy. Unlike some, I think that buying is often worth it. I got my HVX200 right after graduating from my film school last semester. I must say it's INCREDIBLY liberating not to have to beg the department or friends to give you equipment and that's something to consider.

Anyway, here are my suggestions for each bit of important equipment:

Camera-Buy: It's good to have your own camera if you are your own DP. You can train yourself with it and really get to know it inside out rather than having to worry about your school (I don't know if yours was as stingy as mine with equipment but it can be a *****).

Tripod-Rent and Buy: Personally, I'd say it's worth buying a tripod as well and a good one at that. After all, what's a camera without a tripod. However, you should try to get something good and that might be out of your price range. I would suggest if you are short on cash to buy something cheaper like a Bogen 503 as a backup but do your best to get your school's better ones (they'll probably have a Cartoni Focus, Laser, or Gamma).

Mike-Rent or Buy-: This really depends how much dialogue you have. A good mike is very important butt if you don't use it much you might be able to get away with just using your school's. On the other hand, it might serve you to once again buy a cheap mike for backup (the ME66) but try to use your school's (MKH416 or MKH60).

Lights, silks, nets, ect-RENT!!!: You'll never be able to afford all the DP equipment you need so renting is really your only option. On the other hand, make sure you get it. You said you don't want to light any of your shots. This is just plain dumb. You are so lucky to have lighting equipment you can check out for free. Most people don't have that luxury. USE IT! Proper lighting makes all the difference between something that looks gorgeous and something that looks ugly. The difference between and HVX200 scene you light and one you don't is night and day. Outside you can get away without it since sunlight is gorgeous but indoors you absolutly must.

Dolleys, steadicams, jib arms-Rent:-These extra accesories aren't going to be used enough to justify buying them. Just get them from your school on the days you need them.

Post-Rent:-Your school should have PCs more powerful than you can afford and NLEs of the same stature. What I would suggest though is buying a couple of external HDs (you can get a 500 gig one for $350 if you shop around). These will let you edit on your school computers but use as much space as you want and be able to transport your film. If you have to buy, you can get a PC powerful enough to edit on for about $1000 + $300 for a student version of Avid Xpress Pro HD.
 
Post-Rent:-Your school should have PCs more powerful than you can afford and NLEs of the same stature. What I would suggest though is buying a couple of external HDs (you can get a 500 gig one for $350 if you shop around). These will let you edit on your school computers but use as much space as you want and be able to transport your film. If you have to buy, you can get a PC powerful enough to edit on for about $1000 + $300 for a student version of Avid Xpress Pro HD.
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Definitely agree with this. It's dumb to spend $2000 on a computer and another $1000 on software if you're just using it to make the movie. You can just rent a professional workstation that is already real fast.
 
^
Keep in mind this all depends on how nice your school is. I had the most fruggle bunch of assholes I've known. Several of my teachers actually got ticked off at me for using a external HD for some of my projects (they wanted me to edit my independent study offline at 15:1 compression and then recapture as well as only doing my effects work in DV25!). Eventually I got so fed up I finally got my own $1000 but it was useful for summer gigs (and then got a free copy of Avid when I won the school film festival).

The bottom line is that you should get it free from your school if you can but if it becomes too much of a ***** just buy or rent from a reliable place.
 
I think many people here are trying to protect you from mistakes that they have made. This board has a TON of experience on it -- and you would be wise to seriously consider the sage advice you are so fortunate to recieve.

Many on these boards did not have the luxury of having such a supportive collective -- do not waste it on a "gear" list.

One final note: even the most spontaneous, man on the street style project will benefit 1000 times more from proper planning and casting.

TAKE THEIR ADVICE, but you won't.


Dean
 
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