GH4 Feature aiming for theatrical release, 4K or UHD?

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dtzfilms

Well-known member
Hello experts,
I need some expert advice.


I have an array of MFT lenses from my AF100 and G3 days.

CIA Feature, aiming for theatrical release.

I'm planning to do a 3-camera shoot.
I'm hoping to do 3 GH4s, and one with a YAGH for audio.
That's 4K, 4:2:0 but with V-Log - increasing dynamic range and gradability.
That keeps my cost down and speeds up production.
That should be good enough, right?


To get 4:2:2, I'll have to get external recorders for all three cameras, and I'll only get UHD not true 4K. That's expensive and not really conducive to my planned guerilla approach.


Budget and footprint are my main concerns. So really - the question is GH4 4K 4:2:0 or GH4 plus external recorder but UHD? Is it really worth it to spend an additional $7K just for UHD 4:2:2? I care more about the story.


Or perhaps wait for GH5 and see what's new? I'm not buying this year anyway.
It'll be like mid 2016.
 
My recommendations as someone using the GH4 for narrative:

EXTERNAL RECORDING OPTION

- Video Devices PIX-E5(H) will do full Cinema 4K (4096x2160x24.00fps) 10 bit external recording. That would be my pick if you choose recorders. It also has a cheap PIX-LR add-on for master level audio recording (no need for the YAGH module).
- Benefit is 10 bit 4:2:2 recording and usable V-Log L for grading purposes if you want to go that way.

INTERNAL RECORDING OPTION

- Cinema 4K (4096x2160x24.00fps) 8 bit 4:2:0.
- Use the Cinelike D profile with my LUT for the best quality image (see this thread for more info).
- Instead of the YAGH (a clunky piece of gear IMHO) buy a Sound Devices audio recorder for your sound recordist, plus boom pole and good mic (Rode NTG-2 is great quality and doesn't cost the earth). Use scratch audio for the cameras and buy a slate/clapperboard to sync easily in post (your editor will thank you!). Don't skimp on sound!

For both internal and external recording, Cinema 4K gives you DCI compliant options, along with proper DCI spec 24.00fps (not 23.98fps which is video spec).

Get decent tripods and if budget is tight, sacrifice one of your three camera packages for lighting - it'll make all the difference in the world!

HTH!

Cheers from Berlin,

Paul :)
 
dtzfilms said:
Fantastic response! Thanks! I'll check the other links later, but for now I think you've answered the main questions I've been contending with. But with the YAGH rumored to be at $500 the sound devices seems a bit much at $4319.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...eQjHJEMKfT3G2IPXx6mjuXZ9tGPDGyS9r-RoCQ43w_wcB
Click to expand...

Glad to help! Here's the PIX-LR I'm referring to:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1140405-REG/video_devices_pix_lr_xlr_audio_interface_for.html

$350 :)

That would be your best bet for budget if going with the PIX-E5 recorder ($1195).

Also bear in mind that the YAGH forces you to use external power, meaning you need to add V-mount or AB batteries plus adapters to your budget, plus it uses up your HDMI port to convert 4K output to SDI, so you'd need a compatible recorder for that as well. Hence my statement saying it's not worth it.

Cheers!

Paul :)
 
Wait, unless I'm mistaken, you're saying the video devices doesn't record sound?
So to go GH4 external I'll need both the PIX LR and the PIX E5.
To record internally, I'll simply need the PIX LR.
Is this correct?
Thanks again.
You rock, man.
 
dtzfilms said:
Wait, unless I'm mistaken, you're saying the video devices doesn't record sound?
So to go GH4 external I'll need both the PIX LR and the PIX E5.
To record internally, I'll simply need the PIX LR.
Is this correct?
Thanks again.
You rock, man.
Click to expand...
PIX-E5 records sound, don't worry :) It's just that the connection is a 3.5mm stereo plug. The PIX-LR add-on adds XLR plugs and additional circuitry and analog levels etc. It's not a standalone device though - it needs to be paired with the PIX-E5 or E7 series to work.

If you can survive with 3.5mm input, then you don't need the PIX-LR part.

Cheers,

Paul :)
 
My thoughts.... The competition for screen time is very tough. If this was my baby, I'd run it like a business. I'd skip the 3 GH4's and rent an Alexa/Lens package for primary photography, and only use the GH4 for when needed.

I know now this is a GHx forum full of GH users, and you have a butt load of MFT lenses, but if you are shooting a feature aimed at theatrical release, then you need to put on your serious hat and your business blinders.

All the best!

Dave
 
Dave, I'm in the choir with you, but I can't play that game yet. I'm trying to bust my cherry and get my feet wet already. I'm shooting in Asia. It's cheap out here, but bumping this up to Alexa means my planned 50K to "answer print" is suddenly 250K, and I can't move as quickly or surreptitiously. Imagine the GH4 on the Proglide 3 axis gimbal. I'm set up in 20 seconds and look like a stupid tourist with a fancy ass selfie stick. The Alexa on the Steadicam requires light years in comparison, and it sure as hell isn't a sleeper. This is the cheapest of my scripts. No effects, no stunts, a simple dialogue-powered, and character-driven suspense spy thriller, with the threat of violence and fake-able believable violence. The most violent (actually only violent) scene is an interrogator gets shot in the head, and overall, I think the best thing is the story, not the camera I shoot it on. I just want to get my first feature out of the way so I'm not considered a first time writer-director on my other scripts. This is my mulligan but I have high hopes for it.
 
visceralpsyche said:
PIX-E5 records sound, don't worry :) It's just that the connection is a 3.5mm stereo plug. The PIX-LR add-on adds XLR plugs and additional circuitry and analog levels etc. It's not a standalone device though - it needs to be paired with the PIX-E5 or E7 series to work.

If you can survive with 3.5mm input, then you don't need the PIX-LR part.

Cheers,

Paul :)
Click to expand...
Much appreciated, man. Thanks!
 
dtzfilms said:
Hello experts,
I need some expert advice.


I have an array of MFT lenses from my AF100 and G3 days.

CIA Feature, aiming for theatrical release.

I'm planning to do a 3-camera shoot.
I'm hoping to do 3 GH4s, and one with a YAGH for audio.
That's 4K, 4:2:0 but with V-Log - increasing dynamic range and gradability.
That keeps my cost down and speeds up production.
That should be good enough, right?...
Click to expand...

Just got done shooting something guerilla and I used V-Log on a single GH4. If I had not used a Ninja 2 to record it in 10-bit 1080p it would have been a disaster for two reasons:
1. You must nail exposure shooting 8-bit, and without a monitor, waveforms or false color, its really hard to do, especially as you will be in uncontrolled circumstances. The Ninja 2 false color saved my ass on more than a few occasions.
2. V-Log gets you gradual highlight roll-off more than any great increase in dynamic range. The biggest benefit I've witnessed is excellent skin tones. But to be perfectly honest with you, if you are going to shoot this this in 8-bit using V-Log, you will have waaaay less gradeability!

Do some grading test and see how bad the noise can be in the shadow areas under V-Log if you have to push the shadows just a half stop.

So if you must have a DCI 4K experience, just rent some 4K recorders so you can get 10-bit and the life saving benefit of waveforms and false color.
 
Okay, thanks man. Good looking out. Yes. Paul definitely recommends the Video Devices PIX route - sounds like I'll be doing that, if the AF100's successor doesn't come knocking by mid 2016. Even so, the GH4 still has a place, unless supplanted by the GH5.
 
DCI 4k on GH4. If you know the number of shooting days you need, it may be more cost effective to rent some of the equipment.

External recorders and Alexa cameras are good, but you have a budget. Many good movies have been shot on less capable equipment than what you are using RIGHT NOW. 4:2:0 will be fine.

If you can afford to RENT external solutions, please do so. If you can not, don't stress over it, just shoot your movie.

We all can get so caught up on the details that we lose sight of what is MORE important.

Does it have a good story?

Is it in focus?

Does it have CLEAR Audio?
 
Yeah, I gotta say, as much as I love the GH4, if I'm shooting something that has an actual chance of going theatrical, it won't be on a GH4 or an a7s or anything compressed like that. Don't buy new cameras either, just rent and hire a good crew. At the end of the day, it's not "what do I shoot with?" It's "who do I have?" Are the people on your team the people that are going to take your film to the big screen, or is this a "passion project" that likely will struggle to get into any big film festivals? Hope that makes sense - it's just, being a GH4 user myself, I'm under no delusions that anything shot with my camera would be ideal for theatrical release. If I have that distribution solidified, then I'm going to have the margins to shoot with something more suited to that realm. If I don't have the distribution solidified, then I need to either halt and get my script good enough to get A talent attached to it (and thus get eyes on it), or I need to be real with myself - this isn't going theatrical, it's at best going to VOD (which likely won't bring in a ton of cash either).

Just have realistic expectations.
 
I gotta disagree. If the film is good, then a GH4 is more than enough for theatrical. Upstream Color (whether you like it or not) is a case in point. Looks great in cinemas. Was shot on a GH2. The fact is that other cameras can produce better images and are more forgiving in more difficult shooting conditions, but if you know what you're doing and cater for the cameras strengths and weaknesses - the GH4 could look amazing on a theatre screen.
 
GH4 is more than good enough for theatrical distribution. Actual DCI spec 4K, for one (4096x2160x24.00fps). Plenty of dynamic range for another. Super 35 depth of field with the addition of a Metabones Speed Booster. Here's a sample of what's possible (this is 3840x2160 but the principles hold):

LeemingLUTOne_GradedSample3.jpg


Here's the full 4K PNG if you want to pixel peep: http://www.visceralpsyche.com/misc/web_images/LeemingLUTOne_GradedSample3.png

This was a quick test (internal 8 bit 4:2:0), and I'd say it more than holds up for anything theatrical.

If you own a GH4, and have a Speed Booster, you already have everything in your arsenal you need to shoot an amazing looking film for true 4K DCI delivery. No need to spend more unless it's by choice.

Add a great story, good actors and sound, a good cinematographer and a bit of lighting to shape the look, and you can achieve anything you desire.

Go for it!

Cheers from Berlin,

Paul :)
 
The GH4 has a number of negatives that need to be factored.

Some of the bigger ones...

-4K's Rolling Shutter is bad. Wouldn't want to film many action scenes, or even passing trains, with it.

-HDMI lag makes timing camera moves, & cueing actors, unnecessarily difficult.

-Timecode is poorly implemented.
 
Bern Caughey said:
The GH4 has a number of negatives that need to be factored.

Some of the bigger ones...

-4K's Rolling Shutter is bad. Wouldn't want to film many action scenes, or even passing trains, with it.

-HDMI lag makes timing camera moves, & cueing actors, unnecessarily difficult.

-Timecode is poorly implemented.
Click to expand...
I would say that rolling shutter is average for this level of camera. Certainly feels better than the Sony A7 series.

HDMI lag is awful, agreed! How a company like Panasonic hasn't fixed this yet is beyond me. This is really the Achilles heel of the camera, IF you are using the external monitor to judge camera movement live. If you are using the on-board flip out monitor for framing and motion, you'll be ok.

Timecode - not really much of an issue at the level of production of most of these cameras, and also not a big deal if you add in a simple slate/clapperboard (your editor and soundie will thank you for that anyway), just like old school film.

Still, for the money, it's an awesome option for a full 4K feature film (one that I'll be using on my own feature next year).

Cheers!

Paul :)
 
I would also say that you don't even need a speed booster. Fast glass like Voigtlanders, SLR MAGICs all give you a s35 look to my eyes.
 
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