David W. Jones
Veteran
Sorry, should have typed SQ-Lite. Which is 4K raw.
F65 For 6k on eBay
- Thread starter yachacha
- Start date
abreu-canedo
Well-known member
While we're on the subject, some frames from the dailies from a short film I DP'd last week. Not graded, just from custom on-set LUT (based on Fuji Provia)...as such, not perfect by any means (note blown out window which is not actually blown out in the RAW and blacks slightly lifted), but always like to share since not a lot of F65 examples out there.
-F65 RAW-Lite (6:1)
-Zeiss Super Speed Mk.II lens set
-Custom on-set LUT
-Hive 1k Plasma par, Skypanel S60-C, Arri ST1.
-F65 RAW-Lite (6:1)
-Zeiss Super Speed Mk.II lens set
-Custom on-set LUT
-Hive 1k Plasma par, Skypanel S60-C, Arri ST1.
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That is a pity, as if it did SR-Lite in 4K it would make the F65 better for an owner op who'd use it for both bigger and smaller jobs.
Still nearly 10gigs per minute!
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abreu-canedo
Well-known member
True. Weird that they didn't go 4K with the compressed codecs.
For that scale of work I just use the FS700 to the O7Q ProRes 422HQ. It's no F65, but actually capable of decent colors once you get the hang of it.
For that scale of work I just use the FS700 to the O7Q ProRes 422HQ. It's no F65, but actually capable of decent colors once you get the hang of it.
Yes, I'm being very tempted to buy a FS700 myself with their current US$1.5K ish prices. But perhaps paired with a Shogun Inferno instead (just wish it had a Timecode input! Like the O7Q), or wait and see if a "Samurai V" happens (as I'd prefer the smaller 5" screen size of a Ninja V than any of the 7" monitors).
SJX
Veteran
You said FS700 is only 10 stops dynamic range. F65 is 14 stops or? It cut ok with 4 stops difference?
abreu-canedo
Well-known member
Rating a camera is a highly subjective thing. I rate the FS700 as 10 stops because I don't find the lower few stops of the toe to be very usable in terms of what I want from the image in post. But that doesn't mean it doesn't technically capture more than 10 stops. If you look on the images of false color that I posted in the thread SJX is referring to, it shows about 6/7 distinct squares after clipping, each square comprising a 2-stop difference. On the waveform parade, it shows 5 distinct notches from top to bottom (2 stops per notch), with the 8th/10th lowest stop at around 20IRE...which means that the remaining stops are below 20IRE and for me those are below the noise floor enough that I always light my scenes to stay above the noise floor. Also, those lower stops are highly compressed. That is why I said to refer to the image I posted, since all the info is there for you to interpret in whatever way you like. As I said, I personally rate the FS700 as 10 stops, which just means I find 10 stops of the captured data to give me the level of fidelity and color information to render the images I want in post. That's all that means. Id say I'm more conservative than most with my ratings. And the only reason I rate the F65 as 14 usable stops is because it's linear RAW and the grain on the lower couple of stops is mich finer and if you apply noise reduction only to the chroma channels of the lower couple of stops, you're left with very filmic luminance noise that I actually quite like so I'll still use those lower stops on the F65, grain and all.
And as far as the DR difference, it doesn't really matter that much to me because I never really light a scene with more than 10 or so stops of DR. In fact, I try to stay well below that. Even on exteriors. As such, I'm not hitting the limit of either sensor so it's mostly about the FS700 having enough bit depth to conform to the final grade applied to the F65 footage in the few shots I'd use it in. And the final audience is rarely the wiser. Most films mix formats (generally speaking). But in my opinion, it doesn't much matter how many stops of DR a camera has after like 9 or so stops, other than how many stops you can back away from the noise floor and how many stops you can use to roll off into highlights in post. That is just my approach, others may differ.
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rbirnbaum
Well-known member
Can you post higher res images somewhere? This are great, but the lo-res doesn't let me appreciate your work fully.
rbirnbaum
Well-known member
Can you post higher res images somewhere? These are great, but the lo-res doesn't let me appreciate your work...
abreu-canedo
Well-known member
Hi rbirnbaum,
Thanks for the kind words! Unfortunately I can't post these anywhere with higher resolution yet, since it's still in post and don't want to divulge too broadly. But as soon as I can, I'll come back with a link to higher res images and perhaps even a link to the finished product.
SJX
Veteran
I understand what you saying. You saying usable DR. I get it. But 10 stops sounds low. F35 for sure has at least 12 stops usable. But as many say because high lights are so good it feels like more than that.
This is interesting. So if F65 high lights is not as good as Alexa it's also not as good as F35 high lights. F35 is pretty on pair with Alexa there. This is interesting info.
abreu-canedo
Well-known member
Well, that's just like, your opinion, maaan.
You can rate the FS700 however you want, as I said before. And as I said before, I rate cameras fairly conservatively, for the reasons I said before. 10 stops is really not that low. Rec709 only allows for 5/6 stops of DR to be displayed on viewing screens so that is still double the DR I really need. SRGB is something like 8 stops? 9, maybe?
Not sure what the comparison with F35 is, but that's cool. You know what you like. I personally don't think F35 highlight roll-off and clipping is as good as Alexa. In my opinion roll-off and clipping is not really a key strength of the F35 for me...but that's just like, my opinion, maaan. And F65 just clips. Highlight roll-off is not something I consider a plus of the F65. I personally love shadows and I love how much color and fidelity there is in the F65 low-end. The strength of the F35 for me is the color out of the box. Really good color from the 12bit 444 files, right out of the box. Better color than Alexa, in my opinion. But I like most cameras. I'll shoot the crap out of a Red One MX, a GH5, heck, I even like the original BMPCC. So maybe I'm not the best person to be comparing cameras.
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rbirnbaum
Well-known member
Looking forward to it!
G
Guest
Guest
Highlights have multiple aspects.
- the roll off
- color seperation
- saturation
in a way, I almost want to add clipping and compression, but clipping is made up of the three I already listed, and compression is a separate animal that effects the whole image.... it just usually effects the highlights more than the midtones.
The F35 does not have an infinite roll off like film, our eyes, and to a lesser degree Alexas ( i think Alexa's are the only cameras double scanning to save the highlights, they may have the patent on the most straight forward way to do it, and therefore are the only ones that do, or it is a little too expensive to make and no one else cares enough...)
What the F35 does do well, is clip in a very controlled manner. You may notice in the F3 or the A7s that color channels separate and saturation feels off up in the extremes of highlights and creates and unnatural digitally burnt feel. Whereas the F35 does so with more poise. In terms of color channels and saturation, the F35 is a master. Everyone talks about roll off, but at some point a digital camera is going to clip, and when it does, the control in which it does is very important. When cameras get into the 20+ stops DR, maybe they can roll off ever so gracefully, reserving those extra 6+ stops just for the very edge rolling off. but most cameras are under 14stops DR, and there is just not enough leverage for infinite roll of in every situation. It's like that REM song "Everybody Clips..... sometimes". But not every camera clips cleanly. The F35 does, which means if you are making pretty pictures, the camera is not going to get in your way should something blow out in the background, or if part of your subject has a strong highlight. But most of what the F35 does is subtly amazing, and that gets lost on most people.
So, it clips, yes, like any camera format, but when it does, it is not so ugly that it calls a lot of attention to itself, unless you are clipping on the face of the person you are shooting in hard light. not sure any digital camera does that well. besides, as DP and camera people we are generally avoiding the same things whether shooting on an F35, Red, or Alexa. the Alexa does absolutely have more forgiveness in the highlights, and shooting a scene with a light/lamp in the background is just that little bit more easy, but an Alexa can still look pretty digital and ugly, it is just that mostly amazing people and teams work with them. So we don't see a lot of bad images from them. I have seen ugly footage from Alexa's. I do blind tests with directors and show them the bad footage from Alexa's and ask them what camera it is, and they'll guess 5D or something. Then I'll show them some dslr footage shot by a talented team, and they'll think it is Alexa. While not nearly as bad as the Red fanboys, there is still waaaaay too much emphasis on cameras, and not enough on the team and the content.
The nice thing is this. Camera manufacturers haven't leap frogged image quality since the DSLR revolution. While I wish they had, it also creates an awesome opportunity that all these old cameras are as good, and in some cases better than the newer ones! SO, we can afford amazing cameras for dslr mirrorless prices! Hell yeah!
- the roll off
- color seperation
- saturation
in a way, I almost want to add clipping and compression, but clipping is made up of the three I already listed, and compression is a separate animal that effects the whole image.... it just usually effects the highlights more than the midtones.
The F35 does not have an infinite roll off like film, our eyes, and to a lesser degree Alexas ( i think Alexa's are the only cameras double scanning to save the highlights, they may have the patent on the most straight forward way to do it, and therefore are the only ones that do, or it is a little too expensive to make and no one else cares enough...)
What the F35 does do well, is clip in a very controlled manner. You may notice in the F3 or the A7s that color channels separate and saturation feels off up in the extremes of highlights and creates and unnatural digitally burnt feel. Whereas the F35 does so with more poise. In terms of color channels and saturation, the F35 is a master. Everyone talks about roll off, but at some point a digital camera is going to clip, and when it does, the control in which it does is very important. When cameras get into the 20+ stops DR, maybe they can roll off ever so gracefully, reserving those extra 6+ stops just for the very edge rolling off. but most cameras are under 14stops DR, and there is just not enough leverage for infinite roll of in every situation. It's like that REM song "Everybody Clips..... sometimes". But not every camera clips cleanly. The F35 does, which means if you are making pretty pictures, the camera is not going to get in your way should something blow out in the background, or if part of your subject has a strong highlight. But most of what the F35 does is subtly amazing, and that gets lost on most people.
So, it clips, yes, like any camera format, but when it does, it is not so ugly that it calls a lot of attention to itself, unless you are clipping on the face of the person you are shooting in hard light. not sure any digital camera does that well. besides, as DP and camera people we are generally avoiding the same things whether shooting on an F35, Red, or Alexa. the Alexa does absolutely have more forgiveness in the highlights, and shooting a scene with a light/lamp in the background is just that little bit more easy, but an Alexa can still look pretty digital and ugly, it is just that mostly amazing people and teams work with them. So we don't see a lot of bad images from them. I have seen ugly footage from Alexa's. I do blind tests with directors and show them the bad footage from Alexa's and ask them what camera it is, and they'll guess 5D or something. Then I'll show them some dslr footage shot by a talented team, and they'll think it is Alexa. While not nearly as bad as the Red fanboys, there is still waaaaay too much emphasis on cameras, and not enough on the team and the content.
The nice thing is this. Camera manufacturers haven't leap frogged image quality since the DSLR revolution. While I wish they had, it also creates an awesome opportunity that all these old cameras are as good, and in some cases better than the newer ones! SO, we can afford amazing cameras for dslr mirrorless prices! Hell yeah!
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abreu-canedo
Well-known member
Why all the downvotes?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/332752612182
More Like F65 for 1k. Hahaha I know I probably bought a very heavy paper weight but I just couldn't resist. My feeling is this camera was water damaged but I'm just too curious of a cat. I know this is distracting me from other things I need to do.
More Like F65 for 1k. Hahaha I know I probably bought a very heavy paper weight but I just couldn't resist. My feeling is this camera was water damaged but I'm just too curious of a cat. I know this is distracting me from other things I need to do.
G
Guest
Guest
Good times! Looking forward to the results. Looks like there is wnough stuff there to salvage something even if the camera doesn’t work.