F55: F5/F55 Workflow thread

starcentral

starcentral

Veteran
Here is the latest status on XAVC & Sony RAW software compatibil​ity:

AutoDesk Smoke - no plugin yet for XAVC but some users report HD XAVC works.
( Official Thread )


Adobe Production Suite CS6 - Support for XAVC and RAW only via third party plugin.
XAVC - supported by Rovi or possibly other third party plugins. ($400-$600)
Notes: Rovi available only for PC at this time and failed miserably on my freshly installed PC when tested.

RAW - supported via FREE Sony PLAD-RW1 plugin.
( Official thread )


Adobe Production Suite CC - Full support of HD/2k/4k XAVC. Support of RAW via FREE Sony RAW Plugin v1.2.
Notes: Windows and MAC.
( Official thread )


Davinci Resolve Lite v9 or higher - Will open 4k XAVC & RAW files but export is limited to HD 1920x1080.
Davinci Resolve Full v9 or higher - Full support of XAVC & RAW including up to 4k resolution output.
Notes: Windows and MAC.
( Official thread )


Sony Vegas 12 - Full support for XAVC, even SR Codec. No RAW support. You need to use Sony RAW Viewer 1.x or 2.x and export using SR Codec then ingest to Vegas.
( Official thread )


Avid - Supports XAVC through AMA plug-in.
XAVC: As of PDZK-MA2 Version 3.11 (Announced Sept 4th 2013) AVID can support HD and 4k XAVC via AMA link.
( Official thread )

RAW Support: FREE Sony PLAV-RW1 v1.x and v2.x for Windows of MAC offer support for Sony RAW MXF files (F65, PMW-F55/F5 and NEX-FS700) in Avid MediaComposer and Symphony products, allowing viewing and editing capability.
( Official Thread )

Dec 2014 Update:
Avid has released version 8.3 for Media Composer. v8.3 can injest 4K footage as HD, or work in a native 4k format. v8.3 can also AMA link to XAVC or Sony RAW footage quite easily.
( Avid Website )

Final Cut - No XAVC support.
Notes: FCP7 will work with proxy MPEG-2 50mb but you need Log and Transfer Plug-In Version 1.2 for Final Cut Pro. See link.
( Official thread )


Final Cut Pro - X - Supports up to 4k XAVC as of version 10.0.8.
Notes: Needs OSX 10.8.3 or higher but I've run it on 10.8.2 without issues.


Aiseesoft MXF Converter for MAC - Simple MXF converter to convert XAVC into ProRes HQ in batches. $30.


Sony adds the following notes:

Sony said:
-Re Avid: Media Composer 6/6.5 with our AMA plugins (Raw, XDCAM/XAVC and SR) supports RAW, XDCAM, SR and XAVC HD. No support for 4k XAVC until Media Composer 7. Also supported with our XAVC and SR plugins is the AMA file export function, which allows you to export SR and XAVC encoded .mxf iles. Avid has no 4k infrastructure so RAW/4k XAVC support is still limited to a 1920 extraction (which you have much more control over using the new Frame Flex tool in MC 7) and 1920 export/playout.

-FCP 7 requires Content Browser or XDCAM Transfer as the XDCAM plugin/rewrapper. The old XDCAM EX Log and Transfer plugin for FCP 7 was for XDCAM EX only-- no MXF/UDF support. You can also use MXFImport from Calibrated Software or the Sony CINEMON workflow accelerator plugins to bring 50 Mb in directly without a rewrap. For SR you can use the Sony SR plugin for FCP 7, which adds read/decode support. Note that the FCP 7 SR plugin is decode only, so no SR renders or sequence presets. When you tell FCP to auto match the sequence to an SR clip you will get a Pro Res sequence.

-FCP X supports SR files via rewrap to .mov using Sony SR Viewer (new version contains batch export automation/script)

-Unoficially, you can bring SR files into Premiere Pro CS6 if the FCP 7/Quicktime SR plugins are installed on the same system. This is not sanctioned by us or by Adobe but the files will import and decode..
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I updated the first post with FCP details but looks like no dice for XAVC support. At best you can use it to edit your proxies then bring edited project into Resolve to grade and transcode into new file format.

Right now I am still sorting out my workflow options for XAVC and I guess it will be all over the place for a while until there is larger support for it. I was playing around with the trial version of the Rovi XAVC free plugin but it kept crashing my Premiere CS6 (which has never crashed even once prior to that by the way). The Rovi plug-in does work stable in After Effects or Adobe Media Encoder without any problems so initially I was using that to preview some of my test footage and do some test grades, but its not like After Effects is friendly for editing. The free trial is only available for PC and adds a watermark and with the constant crashing issues there's no way I'd pay for the full version until I hear back from Rovi about the issue I reported. Even then, there are other options...

One option for Mac or PC users is to use Davinci Resolve to transcode XAVC footage into a format that you can use in your NLE. Davinci Lite version 9 is FREE and will open 4k XAVC files with the only limitation being that you can only render out in HD. To render out higher resolutions in Resolve you need to buy the full version. The downside to this workflow is you will end up with duplicate "master" files which maybe you can live with but for me it is a waste of both space and time to render, etc... (mind you Davini rips through XAVC even on a slow machine)

If you think you can manage to work Resolve into your production mastering workflow then the better option would be to create low resolution proxies of your XAVC footage that you can whip around in your favourite NLE software, then simply export the edit to Resolve, color & grade it and then render out your project. This is far more efficient and the way it was meant to be used.

Lucky F55 owners can actually set the camera to record MPEG proxies files while recording 4k XAVC and testing this workflow will be next on my list. It means I can very likely edit my proxy files using my existing CS6 Adobe software then export the project to Resolve and sync it up with the original 4k XAVC clips. The more I use Resolve the more I start to like it, but since I've been using Adobe for over a decade on video and in graphics I know the same tools exist in Adobe except they are not as intuitive sometimes or easy to find.

Adobe CS7 will fully support XAVC which means you won't need proxy files at all and can just use the original XAVC files on your timeline then use the Dynamic Clip Linking feature to open clips up in After Effects and grade them without creating any duplicate files, or even having to keep Premiere open! That's why its called Dyanmic Clip Linking and this was the smartest feature Adobe ever came out with to integrate the two software packages.
 
anatusa said:
do u think the CS7 will be available any time soon?
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Hard to say, new release is usually 1-2 years. CS6 came out last spring I think. But the RAW plugin is working now, but again might suggest editing with proxy files instead depending on your system,..
 
If Adobe holds true to form, we could expect CS7 in 2014.

I would expect to see XAVC support in FCP X but Apple rarely announces a roadmap (they did last year, but that's a first).

There will be no XAVC support in FCP 7.

Lightworks Mac beta will be shown at NAB. It will be interesting to see what it will support.

Ned Soltz
 
That sounds like a WHOLE LOT of pain. In typical Sony fashion, expect them to be chasing some other new shiny trinket in a couple of months rather than supporting it. :furious3:
 
XAVC is nothing more than AVC Intra, 422, 10bit with quite high bitrates, eg 200Mbits put into MXF container (like P2).
Every software which has AVC High profile 5.1 level decoder can handle this footage. Remaining issues are unwrapping MXF and decoding performance.

I think from all NLEs only FCP 7 can have problems as I'm not sure what AVC decoder has it built in. All other NLEs: FCP X, Premiere, AVID, Vegas, GV Edius should be able to handle it as they all have good enough AVC decoders already (also MXF support- just few tweaks for understanding XAVC format are needed).
Main issue is decoding speed and I would vote for Edius, as its AVC engine already shines, even without any hardware acceleration. 4K AVC decoding on hardware is possible on latest GPUs, but also on previous generation I think, eg GFX series 5.
Whole process should not take much time- NAB should give support in all NLEs I guess.

Free tools like ffmbc, ffmpeg read XAVC MXF files already, including 8 channels of audio which are stored in MXF also as PCM 24bit (AES wrapping). You can easily convert MXF files into eg. 4K ProRes Proxy (or full quality) MOVs, keeping all audio as mono discrete streams.
 
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How many people have F5/55 cameras now?
Give it till NAB time and I think all will do it.
As I said- fact that you can import XAVC file to some NLE means nothing if playback speed will be 5fps :)
Native editing makes sense only if it works in real time with quite a bit head room. The good point is that XAVC is I frame only, so it's relatively way easier for NLEs than long GOP formats as eg. AVCHD. 4K AVCI-I at 200Mbit will require good AVC decoder with threading, but on modern PCs it should not be that difficult.
 
kolak said:
How many people have F5/55 cameras now?
Give it till NAB time and I think all will do it.
As I said- fact that you can import XAVC file to some NLE means nothing if playback speed will be 5fps :)
Native editing makes sense only if it works in real time with quite a bit head room. The good point is that XAVC is I frame only, so it's relatively way easier for NLEs than long GOP formats as eg. AVCHD. 4K AVCI-I at 200Mbit will require good AVC decoder with threading, but on modern PCs it should not be that difficult.
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Playing back 1080p XAVC on my 2011 Macbook Pro 17" in VLC is a breeze. Uses around 15% CPU, when all cores are taken into account.
 
This is just HD- 4K and at much higher bitrate won't be such a breeze if will be real time at all. It's also VLC player with very good AVC decoder, not an NLE.

How is this file in FCP?

It's unlikely your 2011 MAC will do 4K GPU AVC decoding, so you will have to bet on CPU and 2011 model is already old (is it i7 ?) :)
 
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On my 2012 i7 mac book pro the Sony content browser can play the XAVC 4k clip in real-time, whereas DaVinci Resolve can not. Davinci resolve will render out a 2k image from the 4k MXF file at rate of about 5-6 fps.

As for NLE, as long as you can do some pre-rendering then the edit will play back smooth anyway. But then of course there is the time needed for the computer to pre-render, etc.. .
 
kolak said:
This is just HD- 4K and at much higher bitrate won't be such a breeze if will be real time at all. It's also VLC player with very good AVC decoder, not an NLE.

How is this file in FCP?

It's unlikely your 2011 MAC will do 4K GPU AVC decoding, so you will have to bet on CPU and 2011 model is already old (is it i7 ?) :)
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I hear where you're coming from on all this, because I was concerned about it before I had my hands on the files as well.

It's turning out to be more of a non issue, at least on my machine. 4K Prores has not been an issue, neither has 4K AVC. I'm sure I'll find some combo that can trip it up, but by the time I need to edit 4K AVC without proxies, it will probably be 2014 or 15 and machines will be all over it.
 
starcentral said:
On my 2012 i7 mac book pro the Sony content browser can play the XAVC 4k clip in real-time, whereas DaVinci Resolve can not. Davinci resolve will render out a 2k image from the 4k MXF file at rate of about 5-6 fps.

As for NLE, as long as you can do some pre-rendering then the edit will play back smooth anyway. But then of course there is the time needed for the computer to pre-render, etc.. .
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Well- pre-rendering= format conversion. It's about the same as you would convert your file before importing to some NLE (which could also end up being much faster)- you can't call it native editing :)
Native editing for me= few layers of data+few effect in realtime- than you can say this NLE can edit X format natively.

This is exactly the reason why I said- I bet Edisu will have the best native support from all NLEs as it does currently with most of the formats (+ it does 100% final preview over HD-SDI if needed).
 
Have a little trouble with my online/offline workflow in Premiere. I have a bunch of 4k XAVC files that I need to use. Works fine for the most part, but the edit calls for a number of split screen gags. When I lay the footage over itself, it almost always corrupts the project and then crashes and won't reopen.

I've made pro-res proxies, but they won't link up in premiere because the number of audio tracks don't match (there's no audio on the footage so I didn't think it would matter). Do I have to render proxies again with the right amount of audio tracks or is there a way around this that anyone knows?

Matt
 
Since March a lot has changed regarding NLE native support, plugins and options. Therefore I have updated the first posting of this thread to reflect those changes.

Thanks,
 
Adobe 7 is CC, you just have to look at how it is labeled in the software when it sets up folders. I think CC is going to be your only option.

I am in the process of moving from FCP 7 to Adobe CC, and a few days in I am already happier. Will handle all of my F55 footage and with CC you have access to every piece of software they sell. I thought I would never leave FC but when X came out it was obvious I had to find an alternative. And now that 7 won’t be updated it was time to go. Adobe CC is not for everyone but for me is was the right business move.
 
Possibly interested in the upcoming F7S, I don't get if and why XAVC would be computationally heavier than Prores.
The long gop version will be, obviously. But an intraframe codec should be edit friendly as Prores. Isn't it?
 
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