F5 F55 Internal Codec.

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ng smith

Member
Someone in a previous thread said that we should be treating different Codecs as we would have looked at different film stocks ( maybe this is not a good analogy as my criterea for film stocks was grain, speed and colour palette - for Production it was cost).
Are the profusion of different Codecs a benefit or a pain in the arse? Apart from if they are recording in 422 or 444 8,10,12 bit RAW etc. I don't see them giving different looks ( Camera processing seems to be giving this in Log C, Slog ,Red Code, etc)- Codecs just process the information in different ways depending on the size of information stored. If we can store more information, for example record RAW, we have more resolution more colour information etc and more control in the grade and hopefully a better screening copy.

Going back to my thread title: am I right to be slightly dismayed that Sony are not using Prores for the internal Codecs - One of the reasons the Alexa has been so popular is its use of 12bit 444 Prores. Will the Mpeg 4 Codec have such ease of use? And will the XACV codec compare to Prores 10bit 422 ?
 
is the prores 444 in alexa a log flavor? if not, SR codec 444 or 422 would actually be much better, considerably less compression, more or similar data rate.

formats.jpg

and you can record to two flavors at the same time in camera.
 

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I am not sure if the Alexa 444 prores Codec is linear or log, it is stated as lin / log. As you say the SR Codec may be an advantage - it seems to be in a later free upgrade with an 880mbs upgrade later. I would expect the 440mbps and 880mbps to be recording to the new SxS pro + cards.
 
I don't see lossy codec to codec having "film like" characteristics. Generally codecs are designed to produced the highest "perceived" possible quality of footage at low rates for optimal storage. Some codecs are less lossy, and therefore fall apart less. Falling appart typically happens when there is more than the codec can handle optimlaly like FAST motion, lots of detail and other similar factors in the frame.

SLOG,CLOG,RAW, etc.. is more designed to capture the highest range and information off a sensor producing the best signal to noise ratios possible. That's why for example on the F3 SLOG gives you an extra stop of dynamic range. It is an optimized way of collecting the sensor data, but obviously will require post to complete the final look of the image.

Here are the codecs and RAW options offered by the new F's:

SonyF5F55codec.jpg
 
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starcentral said:
I don't see lossy codec to codec having "film like" characteristics. Generally codecs are designed to produced the highest "percieved" possible quality of footage at low rates for optimal storage. Some codecs are less lossy, and therefore fall apart less. Falling appart typically happens when there is more than the codec can handle optimlaly like FAST motion, lots of detail and other similar factors in the frame.

SLOG,CLOG,RAW, etc.. is more designed to capture the highest range and information off a sensor producing the best signal to noise ratios possible. That's why for example on the F3 SLOG gives you an extra stop of dynamic range. It is an optimized way of collecting the sensor data, but obviously will require post to complete the final look of the image.


As stated in my opening thread...

The question is would you have liked the new Sony cameras to use Prores as an internal codec or are you happy with XAVC 422 10bit and SR codec. Again you can always use external recorders to record to Prores if you want.
Click to expand...
 
Jay Birch said:
Wow, seeing it in the table really shows the vast options available. It has similar options to the C300, Alexa and Epic.... combined.

Does anyone know if the 2K/180p is windowed or downscaled?
Click to expand...

Yes the F55 is a serious little animal.

I re-published the live chat with Sony on FaceBook held October 30th http://www.starcentral.ca/forums/sonythenewfchat.html , and I'm certain it was mentioned that it is not WINDOWED whatsoever. It uses the full CCD, unlike some of the other cameras out there....

ng smith said:
As stated in my opening thread...

The question is would you have liked the new Sony cameras to use Prores as an internal codec or are you happy with XAVC 422 10bit and SR codec. Again you can always use external recorders to record to Prores if you want.
Click to expand...

ProRes definitely has it's own following, I never suspected Sony would would deal with a 3rd party codec. Last year when I attended one of the CSC meetings it was quite evident that Sony wanted to push their open source codec SR Master and I even speculated we'd see SR Master in the new product by Sony before it was announced. XAVC was news to me however.

As for if I would like ProRes in F camera(s)? I have no preference to any codec for the type of work I'm doing. I think as a DOP as important as it is to chose and know your camera for the job, it is equally important to chose and know your codec. Like you said, just add an external recorder and off you go.

ProRes is robust no question, but do you always need that? I don't. I'm doing things with XDCAM 8-bit 420 on the F3 that has people scratching their head. (check out the Movember web series of videos I DOP'd). I'd be more concerned with the 10-bit 422 internal ability than the brand codec itself.
 
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Jay Birch said:
Wow, seeing it in the table really shows the vast options available. It has similar options to the C300, Alexa and Epic.... combined.

Does anyone know if the 2K/180p is windowed or downscaled?
Click to expand...

It's scaled.

The 2K raw mode on the external recorder is scaled as well.
 
Nate Weaver said:
It's scaled.

The 2K raw mode on the external recorder is scaled as well.
Click to expand...

On 2k RAW perhaps, but directly from Sony's website:

"180 fps with a planned upgrade (XAVC 2K/HD). Unique to this process, there is no line skipping or sensor windowing. So there’s no crop factor, no loss in angle of view."
 
SR codec is more than fine, it's been used in SR tapes, in festivals and theaters for a while now. it's less compressed than prores 4444, but you can't really record internally to SR 444 codec more than a few minutes, so you would probably be using an external recorder with SR 444 if the recorder has that option. it might be more cost effective as well. so the most likely codec to be used internally is the SR 422 in log.

mpeg hd and xavc are more for proxy or fast turn around without color grading, they were not meant for film or episodic acquisition. i would not be surprised if the next gaming console from sony had a xavc compatible player as the new ultra hd format of choice.

mpeg hd is to be compatible with slightly older systems of broadcast, and to appeal to news gathering, reality shows, ...etc.
 
starcentral said:
On 2k RAW perhaps, but directly from Sony's website:

"180 fps with a planned upgrade (XAVC 2K/HD). Unique to this process, there is no line skipping or sensor windowing. So there’s no crop factor, no loss in angle of view."
Click to expand...

that means scaled, what are you commenting on.
 
it might not be re-sampled, so scaled is the more appropriate description. sampled implies sampling and estimating or calculations like color averaging or loss of information.

the 2k image might have the same amount of information as the 4k image, one being more color information and the other resolution.
 
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