F5: F5 + AXS R5 or F55

Ron777 said:
QUOTE: "So, if its best to sacrifice Raw for Global Shutter for an additional $2-3K, then its best to get the F55. But if Raw is the better choice, then the F5 and the recorder would be best suited.
*Also adding the extended colour gamut on the F55..."

Just wondering how you determined the "$2-3K" difference? Considering the currently available Sony F5 package (F5, hard case, EVF, 32gig card, battery& charger,Canon adapter...) for $19,500 and then adding the same–mostly necessary— accessories to the F55 body, you come up with an almost $15,000 difference. Adding the R5 recorder to both cameras maintains the same differential.
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No I would not be using the recorder on both cameras. Like I said. Its the F5 + recorder or just the F55.

*Not including the accessories that both cameras would have like batteries, evf, etc. as it wont make a difference
F5
SxS (4x)
R5
AXS Media (2x)
$28,700
---
F55
SxS (4x)
$32,500

Its just a about a 3K difference from the F5 + R5 vs the F55.
That is why Im asking whether to get the F5 with 4K Raw or F55 with 4K and Global Shutter.


I've noticed that some cameras produce rolling shutter that is more noticable than others while other cameras are more subtle.
Looking at tests of the F5, its doesnt seem to be as bad as some of the other cameras Ive seen or used. But it could be different when I handle it in person?
I wished I had G.S. a few times when I had those whip pans, or shooting during lightening or sobbing lights. But its not that often needed, but when I did, I did wish I had it.
As for the extended colour gamut. Its hard to say if this will make a big difference or not. Most monitors still have Rec709. So, the extended colour isnt necessary, unless its all theatrical stuff.
For now, it seems pointless. Some TVs are getting it, but will it make a difference and be necessary in the future? I dont know.
Do the Red cameras shoot on extended colour gamuts? I dont think so? Do they? -- And practically most of the films are shot on Red.

So, the question really is, will the extended colour gamut be a big thing in the future and will be a great feature to have, or not.
Will Global shutter be necessary to have or not. Most films still use rolling shutter.
And will most importantly, will the F5 + R5 recorder for 4K Raw give me more bookings/rentals than the F55 global shutter without the Raw?
 
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Personally - I would go with the F55 and rent the R5. Global shutter to me is a major major feature. The extended color gamut will show itself in more subtle ways-- like compare various shades of red shot on F5 and F55. You will see what I mean. I really like working with raw footage. Greater storage requirements but so much more latitude. But I am also very good at spending other people's money. Still, from what you are describing, I would buy the F55, rent the R5 as needed and then eventually buy the R5 if you have sufficient bookings or rentals. I have already seen one B-Stock R5 for $4850 US ($500 off minimum price) and you may eventually see more B stock or used gear.

Ned Soltz
 
DDirector said:
And will most importantly, will the F5 + R5 recorder for 4K Raw give me more bookings/rentals than the F55 global shutter without the Raw?
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Be careful - don't think the camera will get you bookings... YOU will get you bookings (bad grammar, but you know what I mean).

Look on the downside/negative one for a moment... if you get limited bookings how much can you afford to loose/write off?

Camera systems are rolling around every 12-18 months. Red has just started moving on the very delayed Dragon - that is going to suck up a lot of Producers who want to 'be seen' using the latest/greatest (maybe - LOL) camera.

But we have IBC around the corner... so there'll soon be a new Arri... and once the dust settles on that, there'll be whatever Sony fights back with (upgrades to teh F55 or a new camera - who knows?).

So, the landscape changes dramatically quickly... to quote Hill Street Blues 'Let's be careful out there...'.

 
nsoltz said:
Personally - I would go with the F55 and rent the R5. Global shutter to me is a major major feature. The extended color gamut will show itself in more subtle ways-- like compare various shades of red shot on F5 and F55.
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+1 Ned. I'm seeing the F55 in more TV stuff now and I think the global shutter is a large part of that. Lets face it, a large part of drama on the screen comes from gun shots and glamour (which means paparatzi with flash units.)

In TV land time is the most important thing of all. The F55 with global shutter is one of the few, and certainly the cheapest of the great cameras, that allows you to film a gun shooting blanks or a bunch of flash units without needing CGI FX to fix it in post.

To then have the versitility to shoot the highest quality movies is, to me, priceless. The Epic with a Dragon sensor, the C300, the Alexa, etc may all be great cameras, but can't do it without additional expenditures and time. This is finally starting to be appreciated.
 
powervideo said:
Going back to Dennis' comments about 4K live transmission, here is an interesting development.


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Good to see Sony capitalizing on a wide open market here. The 4K to 1080p reframing unit is brilliant for live event stuff. The trapezoidal reframing tool is the kicker in my eyes. I could see this easily be used even in sports as an auxilliary cam for ringer shots. Wonder if it they have it set up for instant replay of slowmo.

This video really shows where Sony is thinking about exploiting their current product line with Broadcast. This is good for everyone. It means they will have longevity with their current product offerrings, if they keep this up.

We'll probably see some more demonstrations of this and possibly other offerings at IBC 2013 which begins in just over a week.
 
From what Ive been reading, the F55 seems to be much better giving me more options for only $3K more than the F5.
However, without having the Raw option, will that cause a problem for heavy grading even if shot at its best internal 4K quality? (4:4:4, 16-Bit 4K)
 
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The internal 4K XAVC is not 4:4:4. It is 10-bit 4:2:2. The highest cinematic option you can achieve is F55 + R5. Rent the package for a day. Shoot 4K raw and 4K XAVC in a similar scenario to your production. Grade both. See what works for you.
 
DDirector said:
From what Ive been reading, the F55 seems to be much better giving me more options for only $3K more than the F5.
However, without having the Raw option, will that cause a problem for heavy grading even if shot at its best internal 4K quality? (4:4:4, 16-Bit 4K)
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As Ned points out the F55 4k XAVC is 10-bit 422 and so for grading I would say no, it won't cause too much of a problem (really depending on what you consider heavy). ie. if you're looking to recover 2-3 stops from shadows or highlights you could be crap out of luck with any 10-bit log based image recording IMO, especially when there is a lossy codec built into the equation (ie XAVC).

As for getting a more organic film-like look from your images, I think this is easier to do when shooting RAW (16-bit linear like RED) since there is exponentially more information in the highlight region of the image. I always felt that its this high level of data information and detail that when pulled down really contributes to getting way more of a "film look" over a videoy look. (Just look at the REDgamma or REDcolor color sciences. RED has really mastered pulling film-like images from linear gamma)

But yet another consideration with the F5 or F55 is forgetting 4k all together and using the SR Codec in 444 (HD/2k) which would probably be far more suited for post processing over XAVC 422. Another option is using the Odyssey and "renting" a very robust codec to shoot out of the F5 or F55 but it won't be 4k.

A lot of food for thought here.

EDIT: If you're interested in doing a shoot-out/test with the F55 with and without R5 recorder I think I can arrange this through Vistek downtown, we can use my F55 and borrow an R5, shoot, then grade.
 
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On the specs for the f5 on b&h it says internal 10-bit 4:4:4.
I assumed the f55 with 16-bit would have 4:4:4

That was one of the reasons why the r5 with the f5 was my main choice

* edit: I now know it's for HD only and not anything above unless it's with the r5
 
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The specs on BH do say "Built-in 10-Bit 4:4:4 at 440 Mbps" but they are referring to the SR Codec which only became available at the end of July in the major firmware release v1.2.

They go into further detail about it on their Overview page where they mention the SR Codec.

So in total you get:

MPEG in 8-bit 422
XAVC in 10-bit 422*
SR Codec in 10-bit 422 and 444
RAW in 16-bit linear gamma

(*The F55 will give you 4k internal in XAVC otherwise 2k on the F5.)
 
Just curious - how many of you guys have clients that are clamoring for:

4K
4:4:4
even how many were unhappy with 4:2:0
RAW

I have a few that like 4K but not many, and occasionally they want 4:2:2 for some purpose like green screen. But generally Most I can't drag even to Slog because its too much trouble, and don't care about better grading in 4:2:2 because what I give them is so close to begin with. I wish it did matter to them and I could justify going up to an F55.
Of course I'm not cutting or producing my own material, Probably need to up my client base.
 
From your experience, would more people look into the global shutter and higher colour gamut features, or the higher specs and raw camera?
With barely any difference in price, its basically coming down to which will be more in demand. People wanting a camera with the r5 to get 16bit 4k, 444 and raw, or 10bit 420 4k non-raw with global shutter and extended colours.

When it comes to commercials, music videos, features, and shorts.
 
Michael,

You can always add the R5 recorder to the F55. You can never add the Global shutter or the extended wide color gamut to the F5. In the experiences I've had with clients looking at these, most of the time it is a financial decision. In your case it feels like more of a technological / image quality decision. In the long run of camera ownership getting the best you can afford today will serve you well in the future.

I would suggest, that depending on your production schedule, you consider, as others have said, purchase of the F55 and rental of the R5 if raw is really that important. R5 rental is not likely that high and you should be able to get a very aggressive price whether renting from a local house or from outside your market.

Is 4K really that important to this production? Many a feature film were shoot and finished in HDCAM SR 444 RGB. During my tenure at Panavision many lower budget feature films were shot with the Genesis or F35 to 444RGB HDCam SR and shown theatrically with excellent visuals and nearly all primetime television drama was shot that way.

I have seen some color correct / exposure repair, of the F55 imager and believe me the extended color gamut made a big difference and saved the day.

Best wishes for a successful production.
 
It isnt much of a money concern as I can always save up a bit more and get something way better. But with these two cameras at such a similar price point as mentioned, its more of the technicals.
Id have to calculate the rental costs of the R5, if its really worth it with the 55. But i guess it is a possibility.

Id have to see some tests comparing the 55 with the SR codec to the 4K to see the difference and if its worth it.
@Dennis, yeah, that means Ill probably be contacting you sometime lol

thanks
 
HD Gear Guru said:
I have seen some color correct / exposure repair, of the F55 imager and believe me the extended color gamut made a big difference and saved the day.
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agreed.

My experience is that since the primaries are deeper, in an overexposure situation it's less likely more than once channel is going to be clipped. Makes for better exposure saves on any highlight that's got some color in it.

I shot a concert with 3 55s a few weeks ago and the extended gamut with the super-saturated and very hot stage LED sources looks like no camera I've worked with. Not very applicable to most scenarios, but very cool nonetheless.
 
Lenilenapi said:
Just curious - how many of you guys have clients that are clamoring for:

4K
4:4:4
even how many were unhappy with 4:2:0
RAW

I have a few that like 4K but not many, and occasionally they want 4:2:2 for some purpose like green screen. But generally Most I can't drag even to Slog because its too much trouble, and don't care about better grading in 4:2:2 because what I give them is so close to begin with. I wish it did matter to them and I could justify going up to an F55.
Of course I'm not cutting or producing my own material, Probably need to up my client base.
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DDirector said:
From your experience, would more people look into the global shutter and higher colour gamut features, or the higher specs and raw camera?
With barely any difference in price, its basically coming down to which will be more in demand. People wanting a camera with the r5 to get 16bit 4k, 444 and raw, or 10bit 420 4k non-raw with global shutter and extended colours.

When it comes to commercials, music videos, features, and shorts.
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In my opinion there is always a few scenarios that come into play:

1.) the client THINKS they know what they need/want
2.) you actually KNOW what the client needs/wants based on the project at hand
3.) the client DEMANDS what camera and/or gear they want

The bigger the job (or more money at stake) the less chance any producer wants to take on something that is unknown to them. RED has 7 years of existence that is difficult to match no matter what camera or specs the F5/F55 has. Sony could have 20-bits, 20 stops of dynamic range and offer the F65 8k Q67 sensor... and I think people will still ask for RED or Alexa, not a "Sony". Remember the F5/F55 has only been out since March 2013 and the F3 didn't exactly make a name for itself either. People tend to stick with what they trust or have "heard". Right or wrong.

Will people ask for Global Shutter or 444 recording? Some might and most will not, but after you first start discussions with a client and get a true sense of their project I think the responsibility lies with you/me/us as the DP to pick the best tool for the job and/or camera options/features. If the client wants to do green screen on a 7D (yes I've been asked) you might want to advise them of doing it in RAW or some other codec that is at least 422 or 444. If they plan to shoot in a hurry (ie. 14 pages a day) and have a colorist and budget for post cc and grading then I would shoot RAW all the way. If the shoot is more planned, organized and I have a decent amount of control for a shoot and time to light and meter then I know I can probably get away with XAVC 10-bit 422 or heck even XDCAM 420 (as I did plenty of high quality shoots with the F3 to internal cards not too long ago).

So in the end and to me at least the client is not really deciding what they want. They may have a suggestion but from there I consult them. I rarely let the "client" decide what mode, resolution or camera settings I'm going to shoot with. 99% of the time now I shoot 4k XAVC 422 and hand over proxy files or high quality HD versions in ProRes or H.264 depending on who is going to manage the post workflow, etc.. and also give them the 4k originals. If they insist on shooting RED I'm not going to say "no" either but ethically the nature of the project should determine what is really needed or not needed. 9 times out of 10 I can talk people out of RAW by showing them some demo footage on a tablet with HD quality screen.



DDirector said:
It isnt much of a money concern as I can always save up a bit more and get something way better. But with these two cameras at such a similar price point as mentioned, its more of the technicals.
Id have to calculate the rental costs of the R5, if its really worth it with the 55. But i guess it is a possibility.

Id have to see some tests comparing the 55 with the SR codec to the 4K to see the difference and if its worth it.
@Dennis, yeah, that means Ill probably be contacting you sometime lol

thanks
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Most folks here know my story that in October (2012) I ordered a RED camera then shortly after Sony announced the New F's without even knowing what the heck Sony's was launching I immediately arranged the sale of new brand new unopened RED upon receipt of it. Once the details were announced I was 100% certain I was buying the F5 with or without the R5 then when February/March rolled around I justified the F55 without RAW recorder somehow in my head. I really wanted 4k for the cinema stuff and was already making good images with 8-bit 420 on the F3 so was not overly convinced I just had to have RAW. I felt that 10-bit 422 had to deliver enough quality for what I needed and so far I am very pleased with it.

Anyway get what you can afford today. Make money, expand your client base and sell and buy a newer camera when the time comes. This isn't a marriage, frequent divorces are welcome. :happy:
 
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