F35 14-bit 2.8k Linear Raw data stream

Hunter Hampton

Hunter Hampton

Carbonite Member
Ok I'm on holiday and have admittedly too much time on my hands to think of such things but here goes:

I have been reading many articles on the genesis and and the f35 in the past few days to better understand how to get the best image out of it, being the cameras seem to share so much in common and were made by the same company and feature a very similar sensor (if not the exact same one), I would suspect the way the cameras function technically is nearly identical aside from a newer DSP on the f35 and some i/o changes.

With that said, One whitepaper FAQ on the Genesis stood out in particular: http://www.panavision.co.uk/pdf/downloads/equipment-info/panavision/genesis-faqs.pdf

An excerpt of the interesting bit: "The 12.4 megapixels on the Genesis sensor are binned into a 6.2 megapixel, 14 bit per color linear signalwhich the camera electronics then converts to a 10 bit quasi-log, 1920 pixel by 1080 line signal."

As we know, both the Sony f35 and the Genesis have an RGB stripped 12.4MP ccd which is a 3x oversampled HD image consisting of 5760 x 3240 photo sites. Based on this paper, the first thing that happens to that image is its binned by half resolution to a 6.2MP 14-bit linear image into the DSP (2880 x 1620)- most likely done to help with the camera's processing power.

Correct me if someone knows better but what it seems to me is the sensor is ACTUALLY generating a 14-bit 2880 x 1620 linear image- and the DSP does all calculations with that (6.2MP) 14-bit 2880x1620 linear image until the last board in the chain converts that image to 10 bit (or 12-bit on the f35)- 1920x1080 RGB image for recording/viewing.

With some of you taking apart the f35 and revealing how it seems like its a desktop PC with how simple the boards and pieces are arranged, this makes me ask the question:

Is this 14-bit 2880 x 1620 Linear signal waiting to be tapped?

Its been done on the dvx100, maybe we can figure it out on the f35... just dreaming.
 
Hunter Hampton said:
Ok I'm on holiday and have admittedly too much time on my hands to think of such things but here goes:

I have been reading many articles on the genesis and and the f35 in the past few days to better understand how to get the best image out of it, being the cameras seem to share so much in common and were made by the same company and feature a very similar sensor (if not the exact same one), I would suspect the way the cameras function technically is nearly identical aside from a newer DSP on the f35 and some i/o changes.

With that said, One whitepaper FAQ on the Genesis stood out in particular: http://www.panavision.co.uk/pdf/downloads/equipment-info/panavision/genesis-faqs.pdf

An excerpt of the interesting bit: "The 12.4 megapixels on the Genesis sensor are binned into a 6.2 megapixel, 14 bit per color linear signalwhich the camera electronics then converts to a 10 bit quasi-log, 1920 pixel by 1080 line signal."

As we know, both the Sony f35 and the Genesis have an RGB stripped 12.4MP ccd which is a 3x oversampled HD image consisting of 5760 x 3240 photo sites. Based on this paper, the first thing that happens to that image is its binned by half resolution to a 6.2MP 14-bit linear image into the DSP (2880 x 1620)- most likely done to help with the camera's processing power.

Correct me if someone knows better but what it seems to me is the sensor is ACTUALLY generating a 14-bit 2880 x 1620 linear image- and the DSP does all calculations with that (6.2MP) 14-bit 2880x1620 linear image until the last board in the chain converts that image to 10 bit (or 12-bit on the f35)- 1920x1080 RGB image for recording/viewing.

With some of you taking apart the f35 and revealing how it seems like its a desktop PC with how simple the boards and pieces are arranged, this makes me ask the question:

Is this 14-bit 2880 x 1620 Linear signal waiting to be tapped?

Its been done on the dvx100, maybe we can figure it out on the f35... just dreaming.
Click to expand...

Yes and no. Yes, it would be technically possible to create a DSP to interact directly with the image sensor. But it is likely a very massive undertaking - not only would you then need to develop a method to store that data, while also having that data dumped to 1080p for monitoring. Please understand, this sort of undertaking is very different from the project I'm working on to link up a recorder. For a number of reasons. And it is much more complicated. I'll get into it, but first, we need to address your math...

I think you fundamentally misunderstood what the Panavision paper says. Look at page 1 of your link, labeled "Camera Design." I think you took their text and extrapolated 3x (1920x3, 1080x3) to account for RGB. But that's not the correct math. The actual number of photosites is 5760x2160 (1920x3, 1080x2). Multiply 5760 times 2160, and you get 12,441,660 - or 12.4MP.

Why this math instead of yours? Because the RGB stripe pattern means the sensor has vertical uninterrupted columns of each color - red, green, and blue. you need a set of three columns to generate one RGB pixel in a video still frame. So that's 1920 red columns, 1920 blue columns, and 1920 red columns, for a total of 5760 columns. But yes - the sensor does double sample each color. Therefore, the number of rows is doubled from 1080 to 2160. This means each RGB pixel is generated from a total of six photosites, 2 red, 2 green, and 2 blue, binned down to one red value, one blue value, and one green value in the video still frame. If you carefullly re-read the Panavision paper, you'll see it says this clearly, as does every resource on the Sony F35. The graphic in the Panavision paper even shows you the "Macro cell" of six photosite.

So... yes, it conceivable you could set up a DSP to intercept the raw sensor data. But keep in mind that even if you execute your mod perfectly, you will only gain twice the vertical resolution, without gaining any horizontal resolution. You could use complicated image analysis software to interpolate probable color and brightness values to further expand both vertical and horizontal resolution, but they'd be guesses. Perhaps sometimes good guesses, but at that point perhaps you might as well use any of the 4k bayer cameras out there and save yourself the effort.

Because it would be effort. Without Sony's engineering notes, you'd need to reverse engineer all the electronic signals from the sensor, and then develop a signal processor that can sensibly store the raw frame grabs from the camera to some sort of card and file you can read back on a computer. And if you don't manage to wire in Sony's DSP as well, you won't be able to use any of the cameras monitoring outputs - the viewfinder, IF box, or monitor ports rely on a 1080p image signal. So you would either go without, or have to develop those as well.

All in all, a lot of work without enough return.
 
Wasn't sony going to offer a 2k firmware update for the f35? Lets bombard their costumer support with hundreds of emsils ans see what happens
 
macgregor said:
Wasn't sony going to offer a 2k firmware update for the f35? Lets bombard their costumer support with hundreds of emsils ans see what happens
Click to expand...

I never heard that, but I may not have been listening when Sony was still paying attention to the F35. If Sony was going to do a firmware patch for this community, I'd rather have ramping and Select FPS support on the SR-R1, making it so that there's a recorder that does everything the camera shoots.
 
To me the way the F35's sensor is laid out means it was clearly never going to be used for anything other than 1080P.

In reality the F65 is probably the cheapest way to do what you're talking about.
 
Peter Crithary | Marketing Manager, Production | Sony Electronics Inc. | Professional Solutions of America | Peter.Crithary@am.Sony.com

he's a really nice person - so please be gentle with his email!
 
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I wish there was more incentive for them to actually make this happen. By the fact that this was printed in Film and Digital Times suggests to me that the 2k firmware is probably sitting on a shelf or a dusty drive somewhere at Sony. Even if you haven't used one, I'm sure most of you are familiar with the Panasonic GH2 and what they were doing with it over at personal-view, too bad we don't have a programming super genius interested in this camera enough to unlock it and expose all the hidden possibility. I think they were able to begin because someone at panasonic gave them the code.

Maybe Sony will make a way for the AX5 to work with the F35 for 2k output. Then we would all have to shell out for the recorder and new media and Sony would have a reason.

Yes what are you all saying? I will write a message as well but I'd like to see an example of what to ask for first.
 
yachacha said:
I wish there was more incentive for them to actually make this happen. By the fact that this was printed in Film and Digital Times suggests to me that the 2k firmware is probably sitting on a shelf or a dusty drive somewhere at Sony. Even if you haven't used one, I'm sure most of you are familiar with the Panasonic GH2 and what they were doing with it over at personal-view, too bad we don't have a programming super genius interested in this camera enough to unlock it and expose all the hidden possibility. I think they were able to begin because someone at panasonic gave them the code.

Maybe Sony will make a way for the AX5 to work with the F35 for 2k output. Then we would all have to shell out for the recorder and new media and Sony would have a reason.

Yes what are you all saying? I will write a message as well but I'd like to see an example of what to ask for first.
Click to expand...

It would be lovely to have Sony give us anything new for the camera, but I think you may have the wrong idea on a couple things. For one, firmware is developed, then deployed. The idea that 2k firmware may be sitting on a shelf, while not impossible, isn't necessarily likely. There's a distinct difference between hardware capability and the implementation of that capability. Look at the F5/F55 roadmap, and how it took over a year from when the camera was originally released for many functions to be fully unlocked. If Sony had that firmware available on the initial launch day, it would have been to their benefit to offer all features then. But it can take considerable time to develop and test firmware. So there's a possibility that the development was simply abandoned.

That assumes the FD Times report was accurate in the first place.
 
macgregor said:
what are you asking on the emails?
Click to expand...

Something like...

"Hi Peter-

Im a friend of Ed David who passed over your email. Im writing to you because a bunch of cinematographers over at dvxuser have fallen in love with the ccd from the "old" F35. Many of us have puchased used Sony F35's from Otto Nemez and other larger rental houses and repurposed them with various solid state recorders. There was mention of some firmware updates from a sony press conference to enable 2K recording as well as other features. I was just wondering if there is anyway to help us out or if you have some information on who to contact for this.


The f35 had some serious mojo that just isn't in the more modern offerings, were hoping to bring this baby back to life and get it the attention it deserves : )


Many Thanks,


-Hunter"
 
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