Thanks, TheDingo, that makes sense. I'm looking forward to those barn doors, whenever they might come. I have a feeling that we'll see rapid LED light development with increased luminance and decent CRI. Can't come soon enough as far as I'm concerned, especially for location work on batteries (or home wiring). I'm hoping the F&V lights are just a sign of things to come.
F&V K4000 anyone use?
- Thread starter jgardner
- Start date
I am pretty sure it doesn't work that way. Looking at the photos I see the first dimmer on the left controlling the 5600K LED emitters, with the 3200K LED dimmer on the left. It looks like they both work independently of each other.
I should be able to confirm this on the weekend, as I will be able to play with the bi-color model on Saturday. ( I'll bring an exposure meter and a color meter to check things out )
I expect to get 2 years of use out of the F&V lights, then I'll upgrade to something better, assuming that better LEDs are on the market.
What I don't get is how the Lowel Prime 400 LED lights ( $1,900 ) or the Litepanel 1x1 LED lights ( $1,800 ) can charge what they do. Yes, they're better made, possibly have better color, but the price difference is pretty significant.
I'm looking forward to your report. I bought the R-300 shortly after cheesycam's report on these - very nice, bright and doesn't flicker. I'm amazed at the prices, given what LEDs (that were any good) cost traditionally.
eiker_ir
Well-known member
i have the Bi Color K4000S right here:
- Left Dial controls overall light intensity.
- Right Dial Controls the temperature from 3200K-5600K
Tried it just now, it seems that it is indeed brighter when the temperature dial is right in the middle and all the bulbs are on at full intensity. Go to one side of the dial and the daylight ones dim, go to the other side and the tungsten ones start to dim.
I will use it for the first time this weekend, but i did a few quick tests after receiving it and seems to be a great unit for the price. When the "Milk" filter is used, it gives a very soft lift, comparable to any fluorescent source imo. I'll test is as a fill combined with a Kino Diva this weekend during a shoot.
I also have a HDR-300 Ring Light, love it, it really packs a punch for such a small battery operated light. I used them as a fill light last week (Again, combined with a Kino Diva) for a couple of interviews and they matched with no problems, so i'm expecting a similar performance from the K4000S.
- Left Dial controls overall light intensity.
- Right Dial Controls the temperature from 3200K-5600K
Tried it just now, it seems that it is indeed brighter when the temperature dial is right in the middle and all the bulbs are on at full intensity. Go to one side of the dial and the daylight ones dim, go to the other side and the tungsten ones start to dim.
I will use it for the first time this weekend, but i did a few quick tests after receiving it and seems to be a great unit for the price. When the "Milk" filter is used, it gives a very soft lift, comparable to any fluorescent source imo. I'll test is as a fill combined with a Kino Diva this weekend during a shoot.
I also have a HDR-300 Ring Light, love it, it really packs a punch for such a small battery operated light. I used them as a fill light last week (Again, combined with a Kino Diva) for a couple of interviews and they matched with no problems, so i'm expecting a similar performance from the K4000S.
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...Just out of curiosity, how much does the exposure drop from the middle position compared to either the daylight on full or the tungsten on full ?
Patryk_Rebisz
Veteran
The brighter the LEDs - the less color accurate they are so you trade one quality (color accuracy) for light intensity.
Tungsten LED that are color accurate apparently are hard to manufacture (according to LP rep) so LP tungsten units are brighter BUT also less color accurate.
Tungsten LED that are color accurate apparently are hard to manufacture (according to LP rep) so LP tungsten units are brighter BUT also less color accurate.
I had a chance to play with the Bi Color K4000S light this afternoon, and I brought my Sekonic color meter and exposure meter. I really like the digital display that shows you the power split between the 5600K emitters and the 3200K emitters, so you should be able to repeat any color balance exactly by dialing in the same number value.
EXPOSURE
With the power splitting control adjusted to display exactly 50 percent ( the middle position which has both 5600K and 3200K LED emitters on full brightness ), my exposure meter read f/8.0.
Switching to only 5600K emitters the f-stop dropped to f/5.6, or 1.0 stops down.
Switching to only 3200K emitters the f-stop dropped to f/5.0, or 1.3 stops down.
COLOR BALANCE
With only the 5600K emitters on the color balance read 5680K, which is essentially the same as the 5600K single color model.
With only the 3200K emitters on the color balance read 3080K, which is a tiny bit warm, which is perfect when balancing to full brightness tungsten lights. ( with dimmed tungsten lights the color temp can drop as low as 2500K )
When both color emitters were turned on full ( the 50 percent power split setting ), the color balance read 4410K, which is pretty much split down the middle color wise.
EXPOSURE
With the power splitting control adjusted to display exactly 50 percent ( the middle position which has both 5600K and 3200K LED emitters on full brightness ), my exposure meter read f/8.0.
Switching to only 5600K emitters the f-stop dropped to f/5.6, or 1.0 stops down.
Switching to only 3200K emitters the f-stop dropped to f/5.0, or 1.3 stops down.
COLOR BALANCE
With only the 5600K emitters on the color balance read 5680K, which is essentially the same as the 5600K single color model.
With only the 3200K emitters on the color balance read 3080K, which is a tiny bit warm, which is perfect when balancing to full brightness tungsten lights. ( with dimmed tungsten lights the color temp can drop as low as 2500K )
When both color emitters were turned on full ( the 50 percent power split setting ), the color balance read 4410K, which is pretty much split down the middle color wise.
I bought a couple of the F&V R300 ring lights this afternoon, and did a quick color balance / exposure check...
R300 LED LIGHT : No Filter = 5880K Exposure = f/8.0
R300 LED LIGHT : Frosted Filter = 5780K Exposure = f/7.1
R300 LED LIGHT : Milk Filter = 5180K Exposure = f/4.5
R300 LED LIGHT : Amber Filter = 3180K Exposure = f/5.6
...I like the look of the "milk filter", which should be great with most cameras when set to their default daylight setting, but you lose about 1.66 f-stops of light. ( still a good trade off for this quality of light )
R300 LED LIGHT : No Filter = 5880K Exposure = f/8.0
R300 LED LIGHT : Frosted Filter = 5780K Exposure = f/7.1
R300 LED LIGHT : Milk Filter = 5180K Exposure = f/4.5
R300 LED LIGHT : Amber Filter = 3180K Exposure = f/5.6
...I like the look of the "milk filter", which should be great with most cameras when set to their default daylight setting, but you lose about 1.66 f-stops of light. ( still a good trade off for this quality of light )
That's great info, TheDingo! I'm curious though... wouldn't the frosted filter on the R-300 be closer to daylight than the milk?
On the bi-colors K4000S, what do you do with 4410K? I mean, it's relatively bright (at 50% power split setting - the max lx), but how useful is 4410K and under what circumstances how often would that come up in shoots to be at that exact point?
I'm wondering if buying the K4000S makes as much sense - you can always use something else for tungsten, and just go with the K4000 daylights rest of the time (plus these are cheaper by a bit).
On the bi-colors K4000S, what do you do with 4410K? I mean, it's relatively bright (at 50% power split setting - the max lx), but how useful is 4410K and under what circumstances how often would that come up in shoots to be at that exact point?
I'm wondering if buying the K4000S makes as much sense - you can always use something else for tungsten, and just go with the K4000 daylights rest of the time (plus these are cheaper by a bit).
Good old Speedotron flash. I bought my first pack in the early 80's, and sold my last pair of 2403b Black-line packs around 2003. ( great work-horse flash system )
In my opinion it's alway better to err or the warm side when shooting people. Warm is flattering, while cool makes people look sick. And if I am using this as a "hair light", I don't mind if it's on the warm side of things.
The milk filter also greatly improves the look of the light, as it's almost completely even, with much better spread with the milk filter on.
For me, it won't be that useful, except when I have to balance to crappy office fluorescents. So I am going to stick with the 5600K single color models for now, mostly because I can use the extra stop when I am balancing with window light.
My problem has always been trying to balance to daylight window light, so these 5600K F&V panels look like they will do the trick for me.
Well, TheDingo - excellent answers all around. There is one other consideration for me - my next project, that will take me months, I'm gonna do B&W, so I'll be more interested in brightness than exact color temps (within a range), so at this point, the K4000 daylights look like the ticket - I'm thinking of picking up another kit, so I'll have 6 of these. Thank you for all your help!
One thing I forgot to test...
LIGHT OUTPUT
K4000 light with diffuser bolted to the surface of the light, roughly 5 feet away, 1/50 sec at ISO 400 = f/4.0
R300 light with milk diffuser mounted, roughly 5 feet away, 1/50 sec at ISO 400 = f/3.2
So the R300 puts out roughly 2/3 of a stop less light, though the K4000 has a wider spread compared to the R300 with the milk diffuser.
Also, if you want to match the K4000 color balance as close as possible, then you need to add a 1/8 CTB filter to the R300 with the milk diffuser, which will bring the color temp to 5480K. ( very close to the K4000 color balance of 5650K )
LIGHT OUTPUT
K4000 light with diffuser bolted to the surface of the light, roughly 5 feet away, 1/50 sec at ISO 400 = f/4.0
R300 light with milk diffuser mounted, roughly 5 feet away, 1/50 sec at ISO 400 = f/3.2
So the R300 puts out roughly 2/3 of a stop less light, though the K4000 has a wider spread compared to the R300 with the milk diffuser.
Also, if you want to match the K4000 color balance as close as possible, then you need to add a 1/8 CTB filter to the R300 with the milk diffuser, which will bring the color temp to 5480K. ( very close to the K4000 color balance of 5650K )
5Delicious
New member
Hi. Long-time user/reader, first-time poster. This is a topic I have some recent experience with so I'm chiming in.
I picked up a set of F&V lights a couple months ago. I had rented bicolor LitePanels before and was surprised how much I liked the color rendition. Having used really cheap LED panels before, and struggled with the green spike, I was probably expecting the worst. So I decided to pick up some LED lighting to own. After reading some positive web chatter, and speaking to one of their [very affable] guys by phone, I went with F&V.
I picked up two of the K4000 bicolors, and two of the little Z180 bicolors. So about $1800 all in. The past two months have been a bit of a crash course education in LED testing, and comparison.
The good news is that the build quality is great, and some of the features, like panel master/slaving, and the multiple power options (NP-F550, AA, and DC) are great. They look and feel like something you'd pay $400 for. However, the light quality is really what counts, and here is the bad news:
The tungsten bulbs on both the K4000 and the Z180 have a notable green spike that on my panels requires about a 1/8 minus green correction, give or take. The daylight bulbs on both panels, by themselves, actually don't require any correction, which is nice. However, when gelled to tungsten, they *then* require an even stronger correction than the tungsten bulbs do -- about 1/4 minus green. So to gel their daylight bulbs to 3200 tungsten, you're talking about 1/2 CTO + 1/4 minus green. This is a notable light loss.
The magic question, of course, is whether it makes sense to spend this kind of money at all when you're going to need to gel-correct anyway. After a few months of thinking about this, I'm really not sure that it does.
As a point of comparison, I borrowed a set of $30 CN-160 160 LED panels from friends, and also picked up a newer budget 300-light panel from Amazon, the Yongnuo YN-300.
As expected, the CN-160s needed a strong correction -- 1/4 minus green in daylight mode, and when gelled to 3200 with a 1/2 CTO, they then needed a 3/8 minus green.
The YN-300s were the sleeper surprise. Daylight needed no correction, and when gelled to 3200K, they needed only a 1/8 minus green. They are *super* bright. They have barn doors. They are $70. They lack the power options, and the trapezoidal shape of the barn doors cast odd quadruple shadows. I plan to replace the door panels themselves with square panels cut from a two dollar lawn "For Sale" sign from Lowes. This should take about twenty minutes.
So… The F&V purchase was an expensive test mule of sorts, and I learned a whole lot:
1. When the cheap lights were gel corrected, their light output was not notably any worse than the F&V. Per dollar, they are significantly brighter. At this point, personally, I would not spend more than bargain basement money on anything that needs gel correction. If only as a matter of principle, I should not have to finish the engineering job on my own. LitePanels may not offer the complete spectrum of HMI or tungsten, but they are set-and-forget. There is no correction required, and this is unfortunately why they command the premium.
2. I would not go bi-color. As The Dingo has pointed out, the bicolor panels are brightest at their midpoint, and the difference is notable. The F&V milk filters are actually great -- nice soft light and I like the color -- but they do extract a lot of power. A full panel of daylight bulbs gelled to tungsten will give you more output even with the 1/8 minus green than than the tungsten bulbs, which are notably dimmer than their daylight counterparts. If you have a daylight-only panel, and you need other temperatures like 4100k, simply use less CTO.
As for F&V, the company offers a 14-day return period, and I clarified with them by phone beforehand that I could return the lights if I was unhappy with the color temperature. However at the time I really hadn't experimented much with gel correction, nor with the battery of cheaper lights I have since tested. Had I to do it over again right now, I would probably have sent the panels back within the return period. $1800 of F&V vs. $280 of YN-300 is quite a striking price differential.
So if anyone wants to buy my K4000s or Z180s, I'd cut you a very nice deal. Note that I have no affiliation with any of the products mentioned, I've just been spending a bunch of time on this project lately and thought you'd benefit from the test results. I actually have test stills of all these, but I'm in them and would prefer not to be the poster model for green spike! If I get around to doing some still-life tests I'll post them.
Side rant: Why can't anyone but LitePanels supply tungsten filters with their lights that actually work? The little orange frosty panels supplied with all the lights mentioned above are way too warm. They correct to about 2700K, which might be fine for simulating sodium vapor streetlights, but not for mixing with professional tungsten lighting. Is it so hard to measure the correct orange for a 3200k plastic panel? Geez people.
I picked up a set of F&V lights a couple months ago. I had rented bicolor LitePanels before and was surprised how much I liked the color rendition. Having used really cheap LED panels before, and struggled with the green spike, I was probably expecting the worst. So I decided to pick up some LED lighting to own. After reading some positive web chatter, and speaking to one of their [very affable] guys by phone, I went with F&V.
I picked up two of the K4000 bicolors, and two of the little Z180 bicolors. So about $1800 all in. The past two months have been a bit of a crash course education in LED testing, and comparison.
The good news is that the build quality is great, and some of the features, like panel master/slaving, and the multiple power options (NP-F550, AA, and DC) are great. They look and feel like something you'd pay $400 for. However, the light quality is really what counts, and here is the bad news:
The tungsten bulbs on both the K4000 and the Z180 have a notable green spike that on my panels requires about a 1/8 minus green correction, give or take. The daylight bulbs on both panels, by themselves, actually don't require any correction, which is nice. However, when gelled to tungsten, they *then* require an even stronger correction than the tungsten bulbs do -- about 1/4 minus green. So to gel their daylight bulbs to 3200 tungsten, you're talking about 1/2 CTO + 1/4 minus green. This is a notable light loss.
The magic question, of course, is whether it makes sense to spend this kind of money at all when you're going to need to gel-correct anyway. After a few months of thinking about this, I'm really not sure that it does.
As a point of comparison, I borrowed a set of $30 CN-160 160 LED panels from friends, and also picked up a newer budget 300-light panel from Amazon, the Yongnuo YN-300.
As expected, the CN-160s needed a strong correction -- 1/4 minus green in daylight mode, and when gelled to 3200 with a 1/2 CTO, they then needed a 3/8 minus green.
The YN-300s were the sleeper surprise. Daylight needed no correction, and when gelled to 3200K, they needed only a 1/8 minus green. They are *super* bright. They have barn doors. They are $70. They lack the power options, and the trapezoidal shape of the barn doors cast odd quadruple shadows. I plan to replace the door panels themselves with square panels cut from a two dollar lawn "For Sale" sign from Lowes. This should take about twenty minutes.
So… The F&V purchase was an expensive test mule of sorts, and I learned a whole lot:
1. When the cheap lights were gel corrected, their light output was not notably any worse than the F&V. Per dollar, they are significantly brighter. At this point, personally, I would not spend more than bargain basement money on anything that needs gel correction. If only as a matter of principle, I should not have to finish the engineering job on my own. LitePanels may not offer the complete spectrum of HMI or tungsten, but they are set-and-forget. There is no correction required, and this is unfortunately why they command the premium.
2. I would not go bi-color. As The Dingo has pointed out, the bicolor panels are brightest at their midpoint, and the difference is notable. The F&V milk filters are actually great -- nice soft light and I like the color -- but they do extract a lot of power. A full panel of daylight bulbs gelled to tungsten will give you more output even with the 1/8 minus green than than the tungsten bulbs, which are notably dimmer than their daylight counterparts. If you have a daylight-only panel, and you need other temperatures like 4100k, simply use less CTO.
As for F&V, the company offers a 14-day return period, and I clarified with them by phone beforehand that I could return the lights if I was unhappy with the color temperature. However at the time I really hadn't experimented much with gel correction, nor with the battery of cheaper lights I have since tested. Had I to do it over again right now, I would probably have sent the panels back within the return period. $1800 of F&V vs. $280 of YN-300 is quite a striking price differential.
So if anyone wants to buy my K4000s or Z180s, I'd cut you a very nice deal. Note that I have no affiliation with any of the products mentioned, I've just been spending a bunch of time on this project lately and thought you'd benefit from the test results. I actually have test stills of all these, but I'm in them and would prefer not to be the poster model for green spike! If I get around to doing some still-life tests I'll post them.
Side rant: Why can't anyone but LitePanels supply tungsten filters with their lights that actually work? The little orange frosty panels supplied with all the lights mentioned above are way too warm. They correct to about 2700K, which might be fine for simulating sodium vapor streetlights, but not for mixing with professional tungsten lighting. Is it so hard to measure the correct orange for a 3200k plastic panel? Geez people.
5Delcious - welcome to posting on dvxuser, and thank you for your very informative post. Interestingly, I also bought the YN-300 off ebay for just under $70 plus free shipping (from Hong Kong / China), and like them a whole lot (no flickering!), though I'm not sure why the barn doors have the weird reflective silver surface on the inside, but as you say, it's easy to modify.
What your post tells me, is that I really do have to invest in a good light meter so I can measure things for myself and go from there... I guess the expenses never end
The other thought is whether the actual lights stay the same, or differ from batch to batch. I do have a bit of experience with buying Chinese made lights and I've noticed that even buying from the same buyer, exactly the same model lights, you get some variation in as short a period of time as months apart... you buy some lights you're happy with, you go back a few months later and suddenly the lights don't perform the same. Which makes me wonder if F&V change up their lights or not... of course the K4000 and the R-300 are both very new lights. Bottom line, you can't go by what the lights are like at the moment - you need a light meter, because odds are, you may not be able to rely on old measurements when you re-buy the lights a few months later.
What your post tells me, is that I really do have to invest in a good light meter so I can measure things for myself and go from there... I guess the expenses never end
The other thought is whether the actual lights stay the same, or differ from batch to batch. I do have a bit of experience with buying Chinese made lights and I've noticed that even buying from the same buyer, exactly the same model lights, you get some variation in as short a period of time as months apart... you buy some lights you're happy with, you go back a few months later and suddenly the lights don't perform the same. Which makes me wonder if F&V change up their lights or not... of course the K4000 and the R-300 are both very new lights. Bottom line, you can't go by what the lights are like at the moment - you need a light meter, because odds are, you may not be able to rely on old measurements when you re-buy the lights a few months later.
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legrevedotcom
Veteran
5Delicious
New member
You're right -- there's that issue as well. One of my K4000 panels is slightly more green than the other in tungsten mode. In practice, I ended up gelling them with the same correction, because the difference was too small to accurate dial out. But it is indeed a little annoying to look at both the panels with the milk filter on and see two slightly different colors looking back at you.
I'm thinking this is an asset, as the spill is reflected back toward your subject the same way the reflective interior of a good softbox doesn't waste any luminance. Just a guess, I haven't tested this. In any event yes, I'll be swapping out the panel for a more rectangular shape when I get a moment.
Welcome to the world of budget lighting!