FS7: Exposure & CINE-EI with MLUTS turned off

[benjaminreece]

I've been avoiding writing this post, because I wanted to make sure it was well informed. But I still have a few questions on CINE-EI mode after a ton of googling/xdcam/dvxuser scouring.

I plan to shoot CINE-EI with the MLUTS turned off most of the time, giving waveform access. Personally, I do not have a problem previewing with a flat image, and neither do most of our clients/1sts/DoPs. Plus, this gives the advantage when you switch into S&Q high frame rates, your look doesn't go from LUTS to flat. In addition, most of our grades don't end up nearly as contrasty as a 709 LUT. ETTR when I want clear shadows, prioritizing skin tones.

Personally, I love the CINE-EI look out of the box, just wish I could dial up the saturation if anything.

Just wanted to confirm a few questions:

- This means clipping is at 91IRE/% it seems? Is that correct?
- No Exposure Index control, I'm thinking the camera has enough latitude for most well lit scenarios to deal with it. But tell me if no EI control is a terrible idea from your perspective.
- Any other disadvantages?

For our Directors/DPs/operator contractators who use the camera, I will instruct them on this mode, as well as instruct them that they can turn on the 709(800) lut if they want to preview in 1-60P mode.

In that case, does clipping then occur at 100IRE or still 91IRE?

Sorry if this is in Alisters guide, but I've read it literally about 6 times now and I'm still not sure.

 

[starcentral]

clipping with slog3 is 94%. With monitoring LUTs off and viewing purely flat slog3 you want middle grey at 41% and 90% white paper at 61%. I'm sure you're aware of that but just incase.

you only wouldn't have exposure index control if you "bake in" the LUTs. (MAIN & INTERNAL MLUT set to off means you can use exposure index, MAIN & INTERNAL MLUT set to ON means you are baking in a MLUT)

No Exposure Index control is not a terrible idea. It means you can actually set the ISO gain of the camera to match the lighting, or lack of lighting you have. In all reality with Exposure Index control enabled, it means technically you should be lighting for the native ISO of the camera all of the time. I think that is absolutely ridiculous.

The only advantage or purpose of Exposure Index control is to help people rate the native ISO of the camera differently than it is. This is mostly used for over-exposing the image by 1 or 2 stops without having to see it look overly bright in the VF. Again, Exposure Index implies you MUST and ONLY should use the native ISO of the camera.

To test the clipping point of REC709(800), what you can do is shoot a white piece of paper and light it and adjust your iris until you get clipping with your slog and on your waveform monitor. For slog3 that should be around 94%. Now turn on your MLUT 709(800) and observe where the clipping point goes. With this method you can map out and see for yourself the clipping point.

I have a great Exposure Guide for the F5/F55 which is 100% applicable to the FS7 (except for a few tables that reference the SR Codec) that you might find very insightful. It's been highly praised by many DP's and proudly even by those with society of cinematography designations. :thumbsup:

 

[infohou]

I have a great Exposure Guide for the F5/F55 which is 100% applicable to the FS7 (except for a few tables that reference the SR Codec) that you might find very insightful. It's been highly praised by many DP's and proudly even by those with society of cinematography designations. :thumbsup:

I have the above guide. Doug Jensen's field guide also covers it really well for a notalentwannabe like me.

IMHO Doug's training is way overpriced but the field guild is a good tool.

BTW, in Cine EI you can switch between 3 EI's. That just changes the viewing as one is always recording at the native value.

Y'all be cool,
Robert

 

[benjaminreece]

clipping with slog3 is 94%.

Interesting. I point it at a LED 5500K source and work the Zebras up, at 93% they disappear completely and don't come back except at weird angles, and at 94% they are forever gone. So, to be safe, I'm currently feeling like I should leave it at 92%. As an ex-computer engineer I'm pretty technical, but correct me if I'm doing something wrong.

you only wouldn't have exposure index control if you "bake in" the LUTs. (MAIN & INTERNAL MLUT set to off means you can use exposure index, MAIN & INTERNAL MLUT set to ON means you are baking in a MLUT)

Right, but turning on the viewfinder LUT, even with Slog3 would mean that I lose waveform. So, it seems like waveform access vs Exposure index access.

No Exposure Index control is not a terrible idea. It means you can actually set the ISO gain of the camera to match the lighting, or lack of lighting you have. In all reality with Exposure Index control enabled, it means technically you should be lighting for the native ISO of the camera all of the time. I think that is absolutely ridiculous.

The only advantage or purpose of Exposure Index control is to help people rate the native ISO of the camera differently than it is. This is mostly used for over-exposing the image by 1 or 2 stops without having to see it look overly bright in the VF. Again, Exposure Index implies you MUST and ONLY should use the native ISO of the camera.

Right, and it seems what you are saying is re-affirming what I'm saying, which is: if one can deal with their screen looking a little dark or a little light knowing they are compensating for shadow/highlight priority, you can have your waveforms

And just to clarify, what do you think is absolutely ridiculous?

To test the clipping point of REC709(800), what you can do is shoot a white piece of paper and light it and adjust your iris until you get clipping with your slog and on your waveform monitor. For slog3 that should be around 94%. Now turn on your MLUT 709(800) and observe where the clipping point goes. With this method you can map out and see for yourself the clipping point.

I have a great Exposure Guide for the F5/F55 which is 100% applicable to the FS7 (except for a few tables that reference the SR Codec) that you might find very insightful. It's been highly praised by many DP's and proudly even by those with society of cinematography designations. :thumbsup:

I went ahead and bought your book in case I have future questions. Plus, you deserve a tip of the hat for such a great response to my questions and all you do for this community.

Thanks again,

 

[starcentral]

92%, 93%... close enough. Zebras are my least favourite exposure tool, but they are definitely handy to have. If you get yourself a good waveform monitor I'm sure you'd see the clipping at around 94%.

As for waveform access vs exposure index access, this is true. But in general I think the waveform monitor is too small to be practical, not to mention there are no number markings so you have to kind of work with what looks like quarters or thirds on the scale to make any sense of it. I've never used the built-in wfm, investing in an external 7" LCD was the best thing I ever did.

What I meant is ridiculous, and ok I was being a bit hasty, was to expect DP's are going to work with a camera's native ISO. But that's just me, most people don't seem to have a problem with it. I guess if you WANT monitoring LUTs (which doesn't exist in custom mode) then you have to use CineEI mode but you are sort of stuck shooting at 2000ISO on the FS7, or in my case 1250ISO on the F55.

Thanks for getting the book and I hope you enjoy it. My contact info is in there and you can email anytime with questions, or post them on my site.

 

[benjaminreece]

92%, 93%... close enough. Zebras are my least favourite exposure tool, but they are definitely handy to have. If you get yourself a good waveform monitor I'm sure you'd see the clipping at around 94%.

As for waveform access vs exposure index access, this is true. But in general I think the waveform monitor is too small to be practical, not to mention there are no number markings so you have to kind of work with what looks like quarters or thirds on the scale to make any sense of it. I've never used the built-in wfm, investing in an external 7" LCD was the best thing I ever did.

Yes sir, I've got the TV Logic 5.6 which has decent waveform, I just like to set my on-camera monitor with the right exposure tools in the situations where i'm running lightweight.

What I meant is ridiculous, and ok I was being a bit hasty, was to expect DP's are going to work with a camera's native ISO. But that's just me, most people don't seem to have a problem with it. I guess if you WANT monitoring LUTs (which doesn't exist in custom mode) then you have to use CineEI mode but you are sort of stuck shooting at 2000ISO on the FS7, or in my case 1250ISO on the F55.

Right, it does seem that without those built in ND filters there would be a huge usability issue, but I digress.

Thanks for getting the book and I hope you enjoy it. My contact info is in there and you can email anytime with questions, or post them on my site.

Great, thanks again!

 

[benjaminreece]

P.S. If anyone is interested in what I'm getting with m-LUTs turned off in terms of zebras on camera (again, I like to know when I'm clipping the sensor).

 

[starcentral]

What does your TV logic 5.6 show on the waveform monitor during this zebra test of yours?

 

[morgan_moore]

Exposure is easy. Get the main portion of your info above 25% and below 75% on the wfm.

 

[Liam Hall]

I plan to shoot CINE-EI with the MLUTS turned off most of the time, giving waveform access.

That's how I shoot 90% of the time. It's ridiculously easy.

- This means clipping is at 91IRE/% it seems? Is that correct?

93%

- No Exposure Index control, I'm thinking the camera has enough latitude for most well lit scenarios to deal with it. But tell me if no EI control is a terrible idea from your perspective.

Correct. EI only affects the viewfinder image when using a monitor LUT. It also adds the EI into the metadata, but that is ignored by most NLEs anyway.

I often 'lift' the exposure a by a stop to improve shadows which is the same as rating the camera at 1000ISO.

-Any other disadvantages?

Only judging white balance, but you can flick to the mLUT to eyeball that.

For our Directors/DPs/operator contractators who use the camera, I will instruct them on this mode, as well as instruct them that they can turn on the 709(800) lut if they want to preview in 1-60P mode.

I'd recommend the LC-709TypeA look profile. I find the 709(800) LUT is way too contrasty and can lead you to make bad decisions.

In that case, does clipping then occur at 100IRE or still 91IRE?

For viewfinder zebras it will be 109IRE, of course the underlying recorded Slog3 will still clip at 93%.

Sorry if this is in Alisters guide, but I've read it literally about 6 times now and I'm still not sure.

Whilst a good understanding of Slog is great, for most users, particularly casual ones, there's really no need to overcomplicate it. See Sam's comment above.

 

[Liam Hall]

Exposure is easy. Get the main portion of your info above 25% and below 75% on the wfm.

Yep. There's a reason Sony put those two lines on the WFM

 

[weasel-d]

We just received a fs7 and CINE-EI with MLUTS turned off seems to be the best option for me too. Sorry if the following is a stupid question... So according to Alister's guide the EI levels don't do anything if mluts are turned off? They are default set at 800, 1600 and 2000 on my fs7 but going from low to high doesn't change the image. So if I'm getting this right, it is locked at 2000 and the EI levels only display change when mluts are turned on and they are applied to metadata (which most nles don't read anyway)?

 

[morgan_moore]

correct

 

[Lenilenapi]

You could get around the EI issue by making exposure compensated User 3D LUTs in LUTCalc And loading in whatever EI you like . This way you could shoot at lower EI and get rid of the noise . Absolutely the way to go for you IMHO .

 

[starcentral]

We just received a fs7 and CINE-EI with MLUTS turned off seems to be the best option for me too. Sorry if the following is a stupid question... So according to Alister's guide the EI levels don't do anything if mluts are turned off? They are default set at 800, 1600 and 2000 on my fs7 but going from low to high doesn't change the image. So if I'm getting this right, it is locked at 2000 and the EI levels only display change when mluts are turned on and they are applied to metadata (which most nles don't read anyway)?

Just remember CineEI mode, meant to give you Exposure Index functionality, when used as intended adjusts only what you VIEW but not what you RECORD.

Hope that makes it an easier way to think of it all.

 

[Liam Hall]

You could get around the EI issue by making exposure compensated User 3D LUTs in LUTCalc And loading in whatever EI you like . This way you could shoot at lower EI and get rid of the noise . Absolutely the way to go for you IMHO .

That won't work in S&Q mode so pretty pointless for those of us that use that mode a lot.