Exporting 24p w/ Express ?

R

ryvac

Veteran
I didn't have access to FCP so I had to edite with Final Cut Express just to get this done. so I just edited all my 24p footage in Express and I exported it using Quicktime and it looked fine.
However when I open the Quicktime file in the School Computer it looked interlaced.(it's a Mac)

I just don't want to have my video look interlanced. so is there a right way to export it? (I'm guessing it's how I export it)


BTW,
I don't know why this is happening but I remember reading a post that some monitors are different so if it's a progressive monitor it will look interlaced but if it's a interlanced monitor you won't notice it's interlaced or something...

also I know Express doesn't have the timeline for 24p but is that why this is happening?
 
When 24p goes to tape in a DVX, it is written at 29.97, and will have interlaced frames in the cadence: http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/index.html#24pRecording

These frames will not be as noticeable on the camera's LCD, and you may or may not notice it in FCE. They certainly won't be noticeable on a traditional, interlaced CRT monitor. But once you edit and export, and start playing on any progressive monitor, you'll see those interlaced frames jump out at you.

The only way to edit your 24p footage as 24p is to remove the pull-down upon capture and edit it in a 23.98 time line. Once you're done, you have to export it at 23.98.

The bad news is that, as you already know, FCE is not capable of any of this. It can only work with video at 29.97, which means that you're stuck with the interlaced frames in your 24p footage. Furthermore, there's really no good/easy/desirable way to remove the pull-down after the fact from an edited piece.

Wish I had better news for you.
 
Thanks C2V for the BAD news:Drogar-Happy(DBG):,

One more question, if the 24p is recorded at 29.97 then it should work on the FCE time line which is 29.97 like you said.
I did not shoot 24pa so I don't need to edite it on a 23.98 timeline. so it doesn't make sents...

C2V said:
When 24p goes to tape in a DVX, it is written at 29.97, and will have interlaced frames in the cadence: http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/index.html#24pRecording

The bad news is that, as you already know, FCE is not capable of any of this. It can only work with video at 29.97, which means that you're stuck with the interlaced frames in your 24p footage.
Click to expand...
 
ryvac said:
I did not shoot 24pa so I don't need to edite it on a 23.98 timeline. so it doesn't make sents...
Click to expand...

Actually, it does make sense. There's still a cadence there from the pull-down (see the link I provided above). There are interlaced frames added to record the video as 29.97 either way. Now, how those interlaced frames are added is slightly different between 24p and 24pA. That's the downside of shooting 24p for editing as 29.97.
 
sorry I must be stupid or something, it still doesn't make sense...

in the link you provided it still says

"Shoot 24p Standard for: Getting the "film look" on video when you're staying on video and editing at 29.97"

and that's what I did.

and then you say

C2V said:
That's the downside of shooting 24p for editing as 29.97.
Click to expand...

???do I need to go to the hospital???
 
No, you're not ill.

Fact is, 24p Standard (aka 24p Normal) is a compromise. Yes, you get the 24p "look." No, you don't have to have a 24p-capable NLE to work with it. However, the nature of the 2:3 cadence means that you have to live with the presence of interlaced frames.

Go back to the link and look at the chart for 24p Standard. The middle series represents how the frames are laid to tape at 29.97, 5 frames of video for every 4 frames of 24p. And the frames in that cadence each contain two fields (because it is recorded as interlaced video). Some frames won't appear interlaced because both fields contain information from the same progressive frame. But the third and fourth frames in the cadence contain fields of two different frames. AA BB BC CD DD. (Hence the 2:3 cadence, or AA BBB CC DDD. It can also be referred to as 2:3:2:3.)

Unless the pull-down is removed, the third and fourth frames will remain interlaced. And if you are editing at 29.97, that means you are not removing the pull-down.

Furthermore, 24p Standard is not the best way to shoot if you do intend to remove the pull-down, since one of the frames has to be recompressed to recover the 24p signal. That's why we have 24pA, with the 2:3:3:2 pull-down, which has only one interlaced frame in the cadence. That single interlaced frame (the third of the five) is simply omitted when removing the pull-down and recovering the 24p signal.

Again, while 24p Standard is the way to shoot and edit without having to worry about pull-down, telecine, etc., it is not a perfect system.
24pStandard.gif
 
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To sum up (and nicely done, C2V :) ), with FCE, you will not be able to avoid interlacing. You can only eliminate interlacing when working with the footage in an NLE which can remove pulldown and work with the footage on a 23.976, progressive timeline. Then, you can export as progressive and never see the interlacing. (You can also export as interlaced if you need to.)

Because you can't work in progressive, continue shooting 24p standard and not 24pA. Then, in the future when you upgrade NLEs, shoot 24pA and edit on a 24p timeline.
 
Thank you, I canceled my appointment so don't worry...:smiley_up

I know what you are saying now!

here's one thing I'm starting to notice tho....
the interlanced look I am getting seems to be a little different.
the lines are noticeble when ever the character moves. (just when he's walking)
now is this really because of the timeline problem w/ 24p like you said??
I don't think it's so....(because if that's the problem I should get an interlanced look on every 3rd frame only right?)
 
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ryvac said:
here's one thing I'm starting to notice tho....
the interlanced look I am getting seems to be a little different.
the lines are noticeble when ever the character moves. (just when he's walking)
now is this really because of the timeline problem w/ 24p like you said??
I don't think it's so....(because if that's the problem I should get an interlanced look on every 3rd frame only right?)
Click to expand...

First, in 24p Standard, remember that frames 3 and 4 of the cadence are each comprised of fields from two different progressive frames (BC CD). And often, because both frames contain fields of a common source frame, it can appear as if there are two identical frames on playback of the 29.97 signal.

Now, remember also that an interlaced signal does not present then entire frame at once. Fields are scanned in one at a time, so even with the 24p Standard signal, though frames 1 and 2 are each comprised of two fields from one progressive frame, you'll see the first field of frame 2 momentarily over the second field of frame 1. That's just how interlaced video works. This artifact always appears worse in higher motion content. You won't really notice this on your camera's LCD, and FCE's display also minimizes it. And it you are going to show the project on an interlaced screen, you won't have many issues. But it will be very obvious after export to Quicktime.

By the way, there is only one "n" in "interlaced." :beer:

ryvac said:
how do you export as progressive?
Click to expand...

Again, requires an NLE that can handle progressive, such as FCP. FCE will not be able to do this, but you wouldn't want it to since it can't edit progressive, and exporting a progressive movie from an interlaced project is just going to cause bigger problems.
 
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Man thanks C2V.
I'll be honest but I'm finally kinda getting the specs! (70% haha)
well I'm definetly copy/past this to word and save it so I can alwasy come back and read it!

btw, (yes another one)
as I was re-freshing my memory, I remembered I always told myself that the difference for 24pA and 24p is the timeline for 23.97 & 59.97.
so 24pA is for 23.97 timeline and 24p is for 59.97 timeline. I remember reading it in Barry's book too.
but here you are saying 29.97.......(and at the provided link)
so idealy should I edite on 59.97 or 29.97 when I shoot 24p?? (hopefully last question)
 
ryvac said:
as I was re-freshing my memory, I remembered I always told myself that the difference for 24pA and 24p is the timeline for 23.97 & 59.97.
so 24pA is for 23.97 timeline and 24p is for 59.97 timeline. I remember reading it in Barry's book too.
but here you are saying 29.97.......(and at the provided link)
so idealy should I edite on 59.97 or 29.97 when I shoot 24p?? (hopefully last question)
Click to expand...

29.97 is the standard video rate for NTSC. You won't find 59.97 as an option for your time line. What you're semi-remembering is a reference to 59.94, the technical value of 60i.

We're talking about two different things here. Video runs at roughly 30 frames per second (29.97). For each of those frames there are two fields, odd and even, so two fields per frame x 29.97 frames = 59.94 fields.

Thus 29.97 and 59.94 are pretty much the same thing.
 
Thanks again C2V
the more I know the more I want to ask, that's just the way it is!

one last thing, I just re-read Barry's book but it doesn't cover the capture/timeline so correct me if I'm wrong please. (Don't want to make anymore mistakes...)


60i footage= Capture w/ DV NTSC 48Hz < Edite on 29.97 timeline.
24p footage= Capture w/ DV NTSC 48Hz 2:3 pulldown < Edite on 29.97 timeline
24pa footage= Capture w/ DV NTSC 48HZ 2:3:3:2 Advance pulldown < Edite on 23.97 timeline.
 
ryvac said:
60i footage= Capture w/ DV NTSC 48Hz < Edite on 29.97 timeline.
24p footage= Capture w/ DV NTSC 48Hz 2:3 pulldown < Edite on 29.97 timeline
24pa footage= Capture w/ DV NTSC 48HZ 2:3:3:2 Advance pulldown < Edite on 23.97 timeline.
Click to expand...

For 24p footage, you can do one of two things:

1) Capture standard DV NTSC 48KHz (that's KHz, not Hz) and edit in a 29.97 project. This is your only option in FCE.

2) Capture in FCP at standard DV NTSC 48KHz and use Cinema Tools to remove the 2:3 pull down. You may then edit in a 23.98 project.
 
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