Experiencing low signal from a 416

A

Artkoudos

Member
Hello everybody

Even though I've browsed this forum many times, reading interesting conversations and debates, I've just joint it as a member.

I have a mkh 416 and an oade brothers modified Tascam HD-P2.. I've been using them for field recording, indoors shooting, interviews... basically everything that has to do with sound for video television or film... Very recently I bought a sennheiser ew100 pg2 wireless system and a FMX-42 Azden Mixer....

When I tested the equipment I realised that the 416's input levels were way lower than the radio mics one... I had a job next day so I thought that there is nothing I can do than test them in a real shooting environment..... The result was really concerning, the 416 even though pushed to the maximum input and output level was really low, the VU meters needle was barely ever moving, comparing to the radio mic that was set half the way with the levels being peeking at O VU most of the times...

I never had this problem when connecting the 416 straight to the HD-P2 or other recording devices or cameras... I'm wondering if anybody else has experienced something like that before.....

Any suggestions to further test my equipment and realise what is the problem or what is the best way to overcome it...
 
So the 416 works just fine with the HD-P2, but not with the Azden. Sounds like the problem is in the mixer.

1) Did you make sure that the phantom power supply for the 416's input was on?

2) Did you try the mic in through another input?

3) Did you try a different cable between the 416 and the mixer?
 
I've tried all these of course and I've also tried a sontronics Orpheus on the mixer and its fine.... The radio mic is also fine...

I'm thinking of getting another 416 from a friend to try it or maybe a ME 66 to compare it.... I have heard from other people that the 416's output signal is not really loud but I haven't really experienced something like that before... With the HD-P2 set at -18db and full power on the mixer I'm getting recorded signal that is between -36 to -20 db maximum.

Is there any possibility that it might be something related to the input settings on the mixer?? I have input level on -30dbu (mic level) and -36dbu Output level....
 
i looked at azden manual briefly. -30 input seems correct setting. have you used the master volume as well as trim knobs? the mkh series has a pretty hot output compared to many other boom mics
 
Yes I do utilize the master knob as well and on this occasion is also all the way up....

I just did another test... I pluged the 416 and a ADK SC - 1 which is a cheap condenser mic first on the Azden mixer and then on the Tascam HD-P2... I used the same input gain on both separate channels and kept mics on the same distance... The difference on the Tascam was minimal... The ADK was around 4 db louder than the 416.... On the mixer though without giving extra gain on the Master Output and having the input gain half the way, The result was completely different... The ADK was always on the red area of the VU meters and I was actually getting close to distortion and the VU meters on the 416 were barely moving...

I'm not really experienced with VU meters (its actually the first VU meter device that I own) but this does not look normal to me....

Any suggestions of what it might be happening...
Anybody that has used the particular mixer or any other Azden mixer...
 
Well, Azden is not exactly known around here as a reliable make of sound equipment. That aside...

When you say that the needle on the VU meter is "barely moving," can you quantify that? VU meters read much differently, and when 0dB tone on a VU meter is calibrated to -12dB on the DVX, you want the needle to average between -7dB and -3dB. Because it is an averaging meter, it reads values lower than the actual program peaks.
 
The range of the VU meter on the Azden is -20 to +5... On the particular test that I mentioned above, on the 416 the levels would most of the time be constantly at -20 and sometimes move half the way (the maximum) between -20 and -10...


Yeah Azden does not have a brilliant reputation... I read some comments and small reviews about the FMX 42 and with the features that comes with, looked definitely attractive on that price range... In UK is almost double price than in USA (like a lot other USA products)... Comparing to other Azden products, it seemed to me a quite serious attempt on behalf of the company and to be honest with you it doesn't sound bad at all for the money (at least on all the other mics except of the 416) :huh:
 
Hello everybody again... I forgot to mention that i have a shooting on Saturday and I will have to use this mixer because we are gonna record straight on camera, sometimes using more than two mics and we will use the HD-P2 as a backup...

The previous shooting was an interview and the situation was controllable and safer (peaking wise - normal and constant speech level)... I was using the 416 on the left and the radio mic on the right... What I did after the first half of the interview was to take the 416's gain up, on both the left input of the camera and the Tascam, so that it matches the levels of the radio mic....

I wont be able to use a different shotgun mic or mixer for this shooting and I was wondering if this technique is the only way around on a similar situation?? Any thoughts and suggestions will be more than welcome
 
So the only question that comes to mind is whether the phantom is acting up on the azden. The wireless and condenser wouldn't use it, but the 416 would. Do any other phantom powered mics work fine with it?

In theory even if the phantom was underpowering, it should make the 416 not work, not just be quiet, but i've seen weird phantom behavior before.

Just a thought.
 
Both the ADK and the Sontronics Orpheus need phantom power and they both work fine on the Azden.... I'm running out of ideas here and I'm not sure what is the best thing to do in order to get dissent sound on the next shooting.... As I said on my previous message any suggestions and thought are more than welcome
 
floop said:
The wireless and condenser wouldn't use it, but the 416 would. Do any other phantom powered mics work fine with it?
Click to expand...

Um... all condensers* use phantom power. That's pretty much what differentiates them from dynamic mics.

*Yes, some electret condensers, shotguns, etc., do have battery compartments. But generally speaking, there's not a condenser out there than can operate without a power supply.
 
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Artkoudos said:
Both the ADK and the Sontronics Orpheus need phantom power and they both work fine on the Azden.... I'm running out of ideas here and I'm not sure what is the best thing to do in order to get dissent sound on the next shooting.... As I said on my previous message any suggestions and thought are more than welcome
Click to expand...

You've got a tough problem, and it would appear you've done everything right. Initially I thought it was a phantom power issue in the mixer but both of the mics you tried do take 48 volt phantom which the mixer does supply. The 416 is a hot mic so it shouldn't have such a low input on the mixer. There are only two things left that I can think of to try. If you have access to an outboard phantom supply try powering the mic with that and see what happens. The other thought is try using a phase reverse barrel on the mic input. On another board there was mention of not being able to power the Rode NTG3 mic off of a Zaxcom transmitter that supplied 48 volt phantom unless the phase was reversed. Not the same situation exactly but something worth trying.
Good luck and please let us know what happens.
Bernie
 
Unfortunately I don't have access to any external power module.... If you know of any model that I could get on a decent price I would be interested to try... Then also the phase reverse I could only do through a console basically but this changes all the signal path and won't be able to get to a conclusion for the mixer... I could buy a phase reverse barrel but I won't have it before Tuesday.... Would you go for an adapter that swaps pins 2-3 and 3-2 or for one that reverses polarity on pin 1 and 2 leaving the ground and therefore the phantom power supply unaffected ? ?

I will finally have access to a ME66 during the shooting so I will try this one as well...I will try with and without the battery (phantom off/on accordingly) and see how it behaves with the mixer... Maybe this will shed some light in the situation...

If I use the 416 on the weekend's shooting I will just align the camera and the recorder to -10 or -12 in order to get a close to descent signal in... I can't think of anything else...
 
Artkoudos said:
Unfortunately I don't have access to any external power module.... If you know of any model that I could get on a decent price I would be interested to try... Then also the phase reverse I could only do through a console basically but this changes all the signal path and won't be able to get to a conclusion for the mixer... I could buy a phase reverse barrel but I won't have it before Tuesday.... Would you go for an adapter that swaps pins 2-3 and 3-2 or for one that reverses polarity on pin 1 and 2 leaving the ground and therefore the phantom power supply unaffected ? ?

I will finally have access to a ME66 during the shooting so I will try this one as well...I will try with and without the battery (phantom off/on accordingly) and see how it behaves with the mixer... Maybe this will shed some light in the situation...

If I use the 416 on the weekend's shooting I will just align the camera and the recorder to -10 or -12 in order to get a close to descent signal in... I can't think of anything else...
Click to expand...

A phase reverse barrel would swap the polarity of pins 2 and 3. Pin one is ground so swapping pin 1 and 2 isn't reversing polarity its just wiring the connector improperly. If you have a short piece of cable and two xlr connecters you can accomplish the same as a barrel by swapping the conductors on two and three on one end when you solder it up. Be sure and mark it as a phase reversal cable so it doesn't get used normally. You could also do the same to an existing cord temporarily if you feel comfortable soldering and unsoldering.
You can do a google search for 48 volt phantom and turn up all kinds of options both battery powered and mains powered. I use a Deneke which is about $130 US to purchase. Is there an audio rental house nearby that you could bring your set up into to try something they may have?
Does the mic sound ok when you boost it higher at the mixer and/or the camera? Typically an underpowered mic will be very hissy sounding in addition to being low in level.
Bernie
 
Thanks for all the info for the phase reversal barrel and the powering module....I've used the one you are using in the past and I was really happy... Unfortunately there is no rental house anywhere close to me so that I can test it...and I'm not really capable with soldering :( I guess I will have to start practicing soon :) Anyway I will try and get something on Monday...

Does the mic sound ok when you boost it higher at the mixer and/or the camera? Typically an underpowered mic will be very hissy sounding in addition to being low in level.
Click to expand...
Weirdly enough it doesn't sound bad... I did a test today using a similar set up as the one on the interview (mentioned on a previous post)... So I was going out of the mixer on full gain and output level and having the Recorder firstly aligned at -18 and then -10... No hiss what so ever on the first set up (but definitely low signal) tiny bit of extra noise on the second set up but definitely acceptable sound... Afterwards I kept the recorder's input level the same and I recorded straight to it... Level was averaging 4 db lower but better sounding and of course having the ability to push it much more if I wanted....

The problem is that they want to record on camera so that they wont have to sync it on post..... We gonna be shooting on the red camera (The DOP can rent it really cheap) and somebody from the crew mentioned yesterday that many sound recordists were complaining about the sound quality on it.... I will also be using my recorder for backup but since I don't have a personal experience with the red I was wondering if anybody has used it or have heard any comments about its sound capabilities...
 
Artkoudos said:
Hello everybody

Even though I've browsed this forum many times, reading interesting conversations and debates, I've just joint it as a member.

I have a mkh 416 and an oade brothers modified Tascam HD-P2.. I've been using them for field recording, indoors shooting, interviews... basically everything that has to do with sound for video television or film... Very recently I bought a sennheiser ew100 pg2 wireless system and a FMX-42 Azden Mixer....

When I tested the equipment I realised that the 416's input levels were way lower than the radio mics one... I had a job next day so I thought that there is nothing I can do than test them in a real shooting environment..... The result was really concerning, the 416 even though pushed to the maximum input and output level was really low, the VU meters needle was barely ever moving, comparing to the radio mic that was set half the way with the levels being peeking at O VU most of the times...

I never had this problem when connecting the 416 straight to the HD-P2 or other recording devices or cameras... I'm wondering if anybody else has experienced something like that before.....

Any suggestions to further test my equipment and realise what is the problem or what is the best way to overcome it...
Click to expand...

My first thoughts reading this is that the radio was outputting line level and the 416 outputting mic level ?????
 
Go here: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...d/topics?hl=en
and here: www.jwsound.net
Do a search on the Red camera and you will find lots of info.
Bernie
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info... It was really useful...

I just came back from the shooting... The problem with the mic is solved... Basically the equipment was new and before using it I went through the manual... The manual that is on my hands states that the mic input level on the device is -30db the line level is +4 and there is another setting which is -50db which is actually mic level with a 20db attenuation pad... By accident while I was testing the Me 66 just before we start shooting I switched the input to -50 and the mic was working fine.... I did the same on the 416 and it worked fine.... I'm not sure if the mistake is on the manual or on the product line... It makes perfectly sense for the -50 input to be the one with the 20bd attenuation but its the other way around... I will contact Azden and notify them for the issue... At the end of the day I am happy to find out that there is nothing wrong with my equipment... Both devices work fine and I got a descent result in the shooting during the last 3 days...

Thanks for all the interest and help...
 
So basically the manual that came with the mixer has a typo mistake cause I just read it again and it says "-30 dBu and -50 dBu are both microphone-level settings. It is suggested to start with the -30 dBu settings and if your microphone seems to have too much gain (volume) try the -50 dBu position."
 
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