EX1 for Weddings, Corporate and Stock

E

Exact

Veteran
I am looking to make the transition from SD fro HD in the footage I provide to clients. Thus far it's all been SD.

I've played with the family HV20 but it sucks big time in terms of manual controllability. However, it's got me a little concerned about buying a camera that uses CMOS.

I have done more reading on the various HD cameras than I can ever remember doing about any single subject in the past. But still, I'm at a cross roads and don't know which way to turn.

It would have been the EX1 all the way for low light, great detail, full HD (instead of HDV), but some how the CMOS problems are nagging at me.

The first problem is the rolling shutter vs still camera flash. At a wedding flash is almost impossible to get away from. I've seen the police car flashing light stuff on the web, and it's about as ugly as the HV20 is. Urrgh! Does any one have any *real* experience of this type problem, and how to over come it?

The other problem is a combination of pan and fast moving objects. I do some stock and corporate shooting that includes fast moving vehicles (cars, trucks, speed boats and trains). How bad is the blur really on moving objects compared to a 3CCD camera such as the HVX200 or even the XH-A1? All the pretty colors mean nothing if the subject is trashed.

Alas I don't have anywhere local I can rent from, so it's not just a case of hire one for the day and thrash it.... :(
 
Hello,

This is a tough issue. I struggled with it myself.

The flash issue is often a non-issue. It goes by quickly and "normal" folks don't even see it.

There is a software plugin from NewBlu effects that is supposed to address this. $79 but I don't know how well it works.

Motion, I have not tested this exactly to see, but recalling discussions I think this is more of a codec/bitrate/compression related issue rather than CMOS issue.

These cameras along with the Nano flash just can't be beat. $10,000 for beautiful 1080p at 100mbps. Color, & detail are great.

The only improvement would be 2/3" chips and a little softer focus ring.
 
I've got the EX1 and Nano combination, and it's hands-down the best camera rig I've ever owned. Beautiful image, portable, redundant recording and easy workflow.

And a quick note on "rolling shutter"… This past weekend I went to see "The Informant!" with some friends. About halfway through, a photographer takes a picture of Matt Damon with flash, and there it was, the tell-tale half-frame flash.

But the kicker is I'm pretty sure I'm the only person in the theater who even noticed it.

--SM
 
I agree about the flash issue.

I've used my EX1 for a handful of weddings now and it's never been an issue with a client. More often than not, I'll find that the half frame flash is more prevalent with the point and shoot cameras from guests at the wedding and not the hired photographers.

Whether the flash only appears half in the frame or fully doesn't really matter. It's an overexposed frame anyway that doesn't seem to bother the casual viewer. I think it becomes more of an issue with our ever critical eyes.

If it's a really big problem, then you can use plugins to fix in post. I tend to only resort to those fixes if I'm doing narrative work. For weddings, though, it's not a big deal to me at least.
 
I think that the EX-1 is okay for the ocassional flash but it is not the Paparazzi camera where you have to go through a gauntlet of flashes.

I thought the EX-1 with the 720p mode at 60 frames per second was supposed to be good at handling motion especially with the 35 megabit per second codec.
 
ive been *less than happy* with my EX1 when shooting things that involve lots of motion. its real easy to get swooshy when doing even mild pans. i just bought a HMC 150 which uses CCD's and the shots are just a lot tighter in these kinds of situations.

for sports if im willing to take the shutter speed to 1/250 or even 1/500th on the EX1 then its tight as can be but then a bit to brittle.

if im shooting sports and especially night time sports like football or indoor volleyball/basketball...i would much rather use the HMC150 any day of the week. the 150 has much better colors out of the camera as well...blacks are really black. great color and much better to my eye than the EX1. personal opinion of course.

i do admit that the EX1 makes a stunning picture and has more rez than the 150 but i find the 150 overall a bit more appealing these days.

i do appreciate the lite weight of the 150 over the EX1. but the EX1 blows the 150 away in pro features like an aperture ring, peaking overcranking etc. the LCD on the 150 is crap and the eyepiece is barely adequate but i deal with it. the peaking feature on the EX1 will mostly disappear once a lot of motion is happening making it not overly useful.

there isnt any jello with the EX1 but there is definitely skewing on pans unless you go pretty slow. in general use i am not overly bothered by this.

with the 150 i can be aggressive with my shooting style (speaking mostly sports) with the EX1 i always have to stay aware of the mush factor (unless i use a very quick shutter speed) & skewing factor is a small consideration as well.

the strobe thing doesnt bother me much either. i see it all the time on yourtube and tv. its become the norm.

david
www.davidprobst.com
 
100% agreeance with David. so much so I sold my EX1 and bought another HMC150. colors are terrific! the IR problem on the 150 is way noticeable when your cutting with a 150. Its almost
embarrasing to have to mix the two together.
 
Thanks for the replies.

So, for some the flash problem isn't a problem, and for others it is. Classic.

Blurring of moving objects is a problem for some and not for others. Fantastic :)

I guess I need to read more about the HMC150 as well. I had dismissed this due to the codec (which has so far been frowned upon for stock), but I will give it another look.

@ Z1Scottie - You mention an IR problem on the 150. Do you have any samples?

How is the 150 in low light? Given that most (UK) weddings are in dim churches, low light capability is a must.

I'm beginning to think that there is no single camera that can do all the jobs I need, and I'm going to end up buying two, which is no fun when I also need to buy a backup for each of them as well :(
 
So what you are saying is that even when you shoot with the EX-1 using 720p at 60 frames per second for sports that you still get motion blurring? Taking the shutter speed to 1/500th would probably only work when displaying on a 120 hertz television because extra frames ae interpolated.
 
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androbot2084 said:
So what you are saying is that even when you shoot with the EX-1 using 720p at 60 frames per second for sports that you still get motion blurring? Taking the shutter speed to 1/500th would probably only work when displaying on a 120 hertz television because extra frames ae interpolated.
Click to expand...

on the EX1 at 60fps there is still swoosh & blurring. 1/500th of a second isnt very appealing to me either but the picture stays very tight and precise when shooting this high. 1/250th is still fairly together also. at 1/125th is not though.

on the HMC150...1/120th is fabulous to use for sports & 1/60th is still fine. obviously with a slower shutter of 1/60th there is some natural motion blur. on the 150 it feels natural when it happens. i dont feel the alarms going off when i look at it because thats the nature of *shooting at 1/60th* only...and nothing else. on the EX1 its *different*...its more of a *falling apart* than *just motion blur*. you dont have to be shooting sports to see this either.

{{Exact}}...i believe "Z1Scottie" meant to say the the EX1 has the IR problem not the 150. the 150 gives you *blacks* that are black, no question about it.

i bought the 150 for myself but mostly for one of my sons that has gotten heavy into video and editing. i figured i could use another camera for a multicamera scenario and one for the obvious, sports. i didnt expect as much as i got from it. the IQ is beautiful. i had a DVX100a and always thought the out of camera color and IQ *vibe* (not resolution of course) was better than my EX1. now having the 150 i am feeling that great panny vibe again. very very appealing.

there are quite a few concessions on the 150 though but for what i bought it for most of them wont bother me. i like the fact that its only 1/3" chips which gets you DEEP DOF. i dont want to have to focus too much. pick up and shoot is appealing on this camera...almost like a P&S pick up and go! after so much time wanting the shallow DOF like the EX1 and getting the 5DmkII... i just want the opposite for a change. the EX1 does require manual focusing at times because of the 1/2" chips. my 5DmkII is all about critical focusing for which i have the Zacuto Zfinder....blah blah blah....HMC150=SIMPLE!

at first it did cross my mind that i could sell my EX1 but i dont believe i will. the EX1 is still a great camera to me. its just that it has its limitations like the 150 has its limitations. on my 30" cinema display my jaw can still drop when i look at EX1 clips even after 1.5 years of ownership. *RESOLUTION*... no question, it is stunning. i dont get that feeling from the 150. its just when i see the EX1 fall apart, you realize where the faults are..arghh!

the EX1 has an incredible picture as long as you dont go out of certain boundaries which then, it starts to disappoint. motion swoosh is its biggest downfall for me. when i got it i thought i might do some sports. i tried and tried and finally...just gave up. it drove me nuts to look at it (depressing also) so i decided to just stay away from it.

{{Exact}}...i think the 150 can keep up with the EX1 in lower light but i havent done any scientific tests between the two yet. just a hunch.

one more perspective. i do about 60% of my work in a 720p timeline. for me the 150 does a nice job here.

i havent tried the "Nano" on the EX1. from what some have said this is the way to go...i dont know. does it improve the motion aspects of the EX1 compared to the SxS cards?

david
www.davidprobst.com
 
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david_p - thanks for that.

I wonder if I may give a couple of hypotheticals here... ?

1) Suppose you were stood on a bridge over a railway and needed to shoot a train passing underneath. Given your EX1 and 150, which would you pick up and shoot with?

2) If you had to shoot people walking or jogging, which camera would you pickup by default?

3) If you had to film in the boardroom - would it be the EX1 every time?

4) If you had to shoot a slow pan across a lake with the water rippling on the shore, which camera then?

5) If you had to shoot a bride cutting the cake, which one?

If the customer is wanting HD output, particularly Blu-ray, will I see artifacting from the AVCHD codec on the 150 that I would not see from the EX1? For stock, artifacts are a killer.
 
Exact said:
Thanks for the replies.

So, for some the flash problem isn't a problem, and for others it is. Classic.

Blurring of moving objects is a problem for some and not for others. Fantastic :)

I guess I need to read more about the HMC150 as well. I had dismissed this due to the codec (which has so far been frowned upon for stock), but I will give it another look.

@ Z1Scottie - You mention an IR problem on the 150. Do you have any samples?

How is the 150 in low light? Given that most (UK) weddings are in dim churches, low light capability is a must.

I'm beginning to think that there is no single camera that can do all the jobs I need, and I'm going to end up buying two, which is no fun when I also need to buy a backup for each of them as well :(
Click to expand...

welcome to the frustration of wanting to own the perfect *can do everything*...camera.

the expense of the EX1 is not cheap by the time you get enough batteries, cards, zoom controiller, wide angle glass etc. i bought the HMC150 for just under $4,300.00 with two large batts, varizoom controller bag & rain cover with 2-16gb cards. not bad and this camera can get it done for me in a lot of ways. with that said would i forego my EX1...at this point i dont think so. if i didnt already own an EX1 and never know what it was and had only touched the 150....then i probably wouldnt even be thinking about the EX1. as they say..."ignorance is bliss".

if you plan to do any steadicam work then the 150 may have a very big benefit.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...Z_ROCK_PZFI_VZRockPZFI_Rocker_Controller.html
not only do you get the typical zoom with start and stop you also get *IRIS* control plus focus control as well. i cant tell you how many times i would have loved to change the iris (exposure) while using my steadicam but knowing you cant while your shooting without brutally disrupting your shot. my EX1 controller doesnt have iris or focus control.

this is the video that pushed me over the edge on the HMC150...
http://vimeo.com/5676472

david
www.davidprobst.com
 
I don't know what the fuss is about. Before I got the EX1 I heard all sorts of horror stories. Since owning one for a while now I've realized that most of the problems that you hear of don't exhibit themselves on a day to day basis. It's only occasional and every time I've been able to work around it or do quick fixes in post. I've been out with the police on several occasions and not had any problems with the flashing lights.

Compare that to my HVX200 where the noise and lack of rez was a constant thorn in my side, and for me it's no contest. I'd pick the EX1 every time.

Only yesterday we were shooting at a premier league football ground - soccer to all you Americans ;) when I remarked to my co-shooter that the EX1 had been a real work-horse for us. We had about 5 minutes with the chief executive and then 5 minutes with the manager of the club. About 2 years ago we had a similar gig with the HVX200 but without the time constraints. It was lucky we didn't as it took us about 5x the amount of time to set up an image as good as we could in a few minutes with the EX1. If we were still shooting with the HVX we would have had to either set up a Kino (in which case we would have overshot our allowed time with the chief exec and manager and they would have left) or had to shoot a below par image that would have been too dark to use.
 
I have found the EX1 to be pretty awesome. It's still new to me. I did a little shooting out the back of my car to capture trees. My driver was killing me with the speed and hitting bumps, so I got no footage. But I plan on going out and shooting some redwoods out the back again, while moving. I really hope the EX1 can handle that. I am worried, but so far all the other worries I had about the camera melted away upon using it. I have had usable great footage every time, except where I did something wrong. I ruined some b-day footage of my girlfriend's dad shot at 720p. I was reaching for the WB switch because my "energy saver" lights are terrible to shoot under. Anyway I accidentally moved the gain switch to 6db and all the footage (night time in a kitchen) turned out grainy. But all in all I am pretty dang happy.
 
I think this motion 'artifact' may be simply the difference between a lesser camera that's blurry all the time, still or moving, vs. a camera that's damned sharp when still, and exhibits normal motion blur when moving at slow shutter speeds.

Footage looks best when the camera is pivoting about the subject. Panning causes everything to move, and motion blur is the result if shutter speeds are slow. Speed up the shutter and you get every frame sharp. Only drawback is judder is more prevalent, especially with larger screens.

Bottom line, it's technique, and sharper cameras will always magnify the artifacts of shooting style.
 
Yes I think the next big step for high definition is not to concentrate on increased resolution such as 4k which only magnifies the motion artifacts but rather to up the frame rate to 120 frames per second.
 
Exact said:
How is the 150 in low light? Given that most (UK) weddings are in dim churches, low light capability is a must.

I'm beginning to think that there is no single camera that can do all the jobs I need, and I'm going to end up buying two, which is no fun when I also need to buy a backup for each of them as well :(
Click to expand...
Low light should not be a problem with any camera. I have been shooting weddings professionaly in the UK for 27 years, and way back then with tube cameras, 30 lux sensitivity was considered to be very good. I have never once had a problem with low light in a church. The reception venue is a different matter alltogether, but here I can use lights when needed.:)
 
colin rowe said:
Low light should not be a problem with any camera. I have been shooting weddings professionaly in the UK for 27 years, and way back then with tube cameras, 30 lux sensitivity was considered to be very good. I have never once had a problem with low light in a church. The reception venue is a different matter alltogether, but here I can use lights when needed.:)
Click to expand...
Agreed. I've never had any problems with lighting in churches.

Though I prefer going without an on board light at the reception if possible. They seem too intrusive. Of course you can't always get away with that.
 
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