EX1 and RED playing nice together...

Blood Angel said:
Taking a closer look the difference is pretty much visible if you pay attention to the motion with his hand around frame 51.
Where the Red on the right side is totally sharp on the hand, the EX1 is still suffering under interframe coding, the hand is totally without details. Also the Motion Blur around frame 46 and following doesn't quite look right.
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The EX1 is on the right, not the other way around. Jim already mentioned this. Also, there was no interframe coding since Jim used SDI out.
;)
 
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filmbot said:
Sorry but i dont see how an Mpeg 2 , 35 mbps camera even begins to compare to RED One. I am not saying you dont get great images from it but the test was shotie at best .
The lighting is bad for one and you also didnt mention the steps used for the key.
How you conformed the shot from the RED r3d files and a full breakdown.
Picking a better test material and set up would have been better for it but if you want a real test of chroma material just wait till WANTED comes out being it was shot on RED and compd for the big screen.
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Sorry, but Jim did not use the 35mbps XDCAM codec, he mentioned it was taken straight from SDI 4:2:2. The EX1 offers 10 bit, but Jim mentioned his card was only capable of 8bit.

Also, both cameras were under the same lighting conditons.

When it comes to pure composition viewed in 1080, the RED will win with it's ability for selective foccus. But, this test was only for how well these cameras key in 1080.
BTW, I think RED ia simply amazing and it's getting better all the time with firmware upgrades. I'm looking forward to buying Scarlet. I bet this will also cut well with the EX1.
 
Highlights on the right side clip are blowing out on the right side of his face and shoulder. The same area on the left side is not blowing out. The left side also seems to have less DOF as others have mentioned.

Both images are impressive. The RED is outstanding. Hope Scarlet looks even close to that.
 
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I do have to agree with the person askingabout focus. It seems out of focus more than anything. Perhaps because of the Shallow DOF. That's why the EX-1 might look sharper or look as though it has more detail.

But, key for key it looks like it came out pretty good.
 
The one on the right is blowing out a lot quicker.
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Yes, the one on the right is blowing out more but it also appears to have a little higher contrast setting too, which may account for some of it. I don't say this in defense of the EX1, I'm just looking at the two images. That said, I'm sure the RED camera does have more dynamic range/lattitude.
 
Jim,

Regarding comments about EX1 exposure/highlights on the talent's arm, would you kindly confirm if you were using one of the EX1's STD or CINE (1,2,3 or 4) gamma curves, as this may also provide a possible variation to the outcome?

Of course there is always some subjective elements and variables that can be chosen when doing a test like this. I understand and accept that in the spirit of the test.

Always very interesting to see your tests, thank you for sharing your observations.
 
This is encouraging information. The dynamic range of the EX1 will depend heavily on the gamma and exposure settings. I always like to underexpose a bit, to preserve highlights. Black stretch can bring back some of the shadow area quite effectively.
I find that footage from the EX1 can withstand aggressive sharpening without becoming ratty-looking. It's astounding.
 
Christopher Barry said:
Jim,

Regarding comments about EX1 exposure/highlights on the talent's arm, would you kindly confirm if you were using one of the EX1's STD or CINE (1,2,3 or 4) gamma curves, as this may also provide a possible variation to the outcome?

Of course there is always some subjective elements and variables that can be chosen when doing a test like this. I understand and accept that in the spirit of the test.

Always very interesting to see your tests, thank you for sharing your observations.
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Read his original post. The information is there regarding using the standard gamma.
 
One thing I will mention in regards to Christopher's question, is that my setup on the EX1 (standard gamma 3, no matrix, black at -5) was to get the most straight line response out of the camera I could get and provide the best line up with the full RGB values after conversion, with the exception of the very top end, where my knee was set to start at 95% (I think it normally is set for 85%) and fold over to overexposure at 109 IRE.

This method of shooting very linear is something I'm experimenting with, based on a post by John Galt of Panavision and his thoughts on getting the best keys from 3 chip "video" cameras.

Since my capture card hard clipped at 100 IRE (even though its own scopes showed all the incoming signal), this extra bit over 100 was lost, my strategy ruined, and the footage suffered from it.

Regards,
 
Steve, I need more sleep and less EX1 play.

Jim, I am addicted to Cine 1 gamma curve, cinema matrix and detail off, then push and pull in post. Thanks for the further info.
 
Hi Steve, check out this post at Cinematography.net... it may require a log-in just to read it...

http://ls.cinematography.net/read/messages?id=130005

I'll only quote the paragraph I mentioned, from a longer post;

"The good news is that getting a perfect blue-screen or green-screen in a professional electronic camera (Panasonic, Sony, Thomson) is not difficult. Use Composite Components paint or fabrics, turn off matrix, image enhancement and knee-slope or equivalent controls. Light the backing material to the same stop as the foreground photography, but please do not under-expose! An exposure index of 320 is goo for most professional 2/3" prism cameras. Remember that all existing CCD or CMOS cameras are essentially linear so over-exposing, but not clipping highlights, will produce better results. Eerything else is nonsense, do not be fooled by the secret sauce (or Cool-Aid)! " -John Galt, Senior Vice President, Panavision Digital Imaging.

Christopher, I will do more tests as time permits, I usually use CineGamma 4 for my outdoor and "normal" shooting. I think it's the same basics as CG1, but allows the signal to hit 109 IRE. In the case of key work, I've been reluctant to shoot material that requires a levels hit before keying... I will experiment!

Regards,
 
Jim, just to clarify and not misrepresent, my preference for Cine 1, etc, is more general shooting in uncontrolled lighting environments. I am preparing for an ultra low light shoot and still trying to determine which gamma curve to apply. The Cine 1 gamma shows less noise on a calibrated HD LCD monitor, mostly because the curve is masking the noise, and Cine 4, whilst showing more detail in the darker areas, also raises the noise observed in the image, which is also there in Cine 1, when I raise the levels in post. More testing with a locked off camera and do some difference keys on the various outcomes to compare noise. Investing in Neat Video Pro plugin seem like the answer for now. Still, I am amazed at what detail can be captured by the EX1 in ultra low light.

End OT comment. Thanks, Jim.
 
Also, it's important to note that the Red does not do any sharpening in its processing. Most other cameras (including the EX-1) do add sharpening. I find that adding a slight bit of post sharpening to Red footage (after all processing and color correction) makes a big difference.

Doing full quality debayering on Red footage makes sure that you get a very smooth, non-aliasing, but slightly 'soft-looking' image. This is by Graeme Nattress' design. Artifact free output with sharpening to taste as the last step in the post chain yields fantastic results.

Thanks for this test Jim!
 
Just as a mention, you can completely, absolutely turn off the sharpening on the EX1, as I did for this test.

That is what you are seeing in the movie; Two sources with no sharpening applied, other than the RED getting the advantage of that final high quality scale down to 1080p, which is a form of "natural" sharpening. So that downsampled RED image is being compared to an EX1 image completely free of edge detailing... impressive, IMO.

In addition, I did do the debayer work for the RED from the full 4K with the maximum detail reconstruction, but no added OLPF sharpening. As a long time RED follower I'm up on all the best tricks, but didn't feel ANY extra post sharpening should be added to either image for this test.

Regards,
 
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