Ex-1 the only choice under $10,000.

E

e.a._kennedy

New member
We are the development phase of a historical documentary and I am having some difficulty convincing the director of photography that it would be foolish to begin shooting the project on the HVX200 regardless of how "glorious" the "footage" looks because it is becoming ever increasingly apparent that if we have any hopes of getting the project aired on the likes of the BBC or PBS nothing is going to meet their specs for under $10,000 other than the ex-1. Now I have read a lot of pros and cons regarding work flow, codex, formats, ergonomics etc, but very little about what is being asked for by broadcaster in the context of what cameras will fulfill their requirements. So, I suppose the question is should I get off the dp's back or just forge ahead in acquiring the footage using the Ex-1.
 
Has a broadcaster asked you to shoot what you're shooting?

If not, shoot with the best camera you can afford or have access to. I'm in the middle of a documentary that's been shot with a mix of HVX200, HPX170 and HPX500 footage. If your topic and story is compelling enough, nobody will care what you shot it on.
 
Take a look at the HPX300. It's got all the "glorious" qualities of the HVX200, with the sharpness and crispness of the EX1, and a better recording format than either of them. Seems like it'd be the best of both worlds for you and your DP.
 
stephenmick said:
Has a broadcaster asked you to shoot what you're shooting?

If not, shoot with the best camera you can afford or have access to. I'm in the middle of a documentary that's been shot with a mix of HVX200, HPX170 and HPX500 footage. If your topic and story is compelling enough, nobody will care what you shot it on.
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If we had secured acquisition by any boardcaster this wouldn't have been a question (I hope that doesn't come off as being flippant). As I pointed out we are in the very early stages of development but due to the timeliness of the subject matter we are having to move forward before we can even begin to pitch acquisition.

I can understand your point about mixed cameras for a project that has been in the works, and while we are going to start shooting very shortly, my concern isn't with legacy projects, just those that are moving forward in the near future. My concern is based upon what I have been reading here, and confirmed during a recent conference I attended, the HD specs being laid out may pose stumbling block for future projects.

Fortunately, two of the folks who have expressed an interest in acting as executive producers both have track records with PBS and while I was waiting for a response weighed in heavily in favor of the Ex-1 so unless someone has a stronger argument against, I think that is the direction that we will go in.

As for the HPX 300, that is a bit more than the $10,000 upper limit and a few thousand over our current budget.

PS - compelling from the creators point of view usually is a bit more biased than what others find to be compelling, so if it comes down to a deal breaker, I wouldn't want to lose the deal on issues of specifications.

But I do appreciate your input. Thanks.
 
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According to street prices, the HPX300 is going to come in under $10K. ($8495 at B&H)

And I hope you don't think I was being flippant with my response, but I've never heard any network say, "wow, that's an amazing piece of content. Too bad you shot it with an HPX-170."

Why buy a camera at all? Take your camera budget and rent an HPX500 with it. Obviously it depends on the nature of what you're shooting, but if you need 2/3" there are plenty of rentals out there.

--SM
 
stephenmick said:
According to street prices, the HPX300 is going to come in under $10K. ($8495 at B&H)

And I hope you don't think I was being flippant with my response, but I've never heard any network say, "wow, that's an amazing piece of content. Too bad you shot it with an HPX-170."

Why buy a camera at all? Take your camera budget and rent an HPX500 with it. Obviously it depends on the nature of what you're shooting, but if you need 2/3" there are plenty of rentals out there.

--SM
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Because a historical documentary will go through rental costs more than this cam is worth by the time its finished.

Street price may be $8495 but all the accessories needed to make the cam work in the field will be well over $10,000. Thats not even taking into account the heavier form factor that makes mounting, carrying, rigging the thing more costly.

And no matter what Barry may say the P2 thing is a fiasco for the independent out there. The networks can afford P2 which is who it was developed for but for those of us its just a money drain that frustrates for the short record times at best quality.

I just put an EX1 purchase package together with 10 accessories and the total cost cam to around $8500. I can shoot all day without having to download in the field and breaking my bank account.
 
I guess I should have cleared my 64GB and 32GB P2 card purchases with the networks first. I'm an "indie" and I've already paid for the costs of the cards at least three times over. Oh, and shooting all day without having to download sure is nice, I'll agree with you on that.

And calling this a "historical documentary" doesn't really give us enough details for you to decide whether or not renting is worth it. If their goal is to shoot something like "John Adams" then sure, renting is not realistic. But I can rent a fully kitted-out HPX500 package with P2, tripod and monitor for just over $1,500 per week. Depending on their shooting schedule, it might not be a bad idea, especially if it assures they won't have issues with networks down the road.
 
Many documentaries were shot on a dvx100 and many were quite successful. It shouldn't matter what you shoot on- but I realize sometimes it does. I was passed over for a few live event gigs recently because I have the EX1. The production did not want to deal with the format. Oh well.
I don't quite understand the trashing of mpeg codec. My EX1 footage has been super clean in light and low light. I edit with ease in FCP and Avid. And I have added filters without losing quality. In fact, I've tweaked it to look like Panasonic- but i do miss the Panasonic motion. Panasonic 24p always looked the best to me. I'm picking up a HMC150 for just this reason. But on gigs where I have to relay on getting the sharpest, cleanest image- I'm taking the Sony.

I'm curious about the new Panasonic 300. But so far -if I read between the lines- The image is equal to the EX1- but it has AVC-intra and somehow that's supposed to make a world of difference.
I look forward to checking it out- but the EX has been great and I'm not sure I need to go to a big heavy camera right now.

Anyhow- if you're shooting the film and you want to use the EX1- use it. If you have a DP that wants the HVX200- that's his choice. Let him use it. Sometimes you want to shoot 16mm even when you can have 35mm.
Now go worry about how you're going to capture broadcast quality sound.
 
stephenmick said:
I guess I should have cleared my 64GB and 32GB P2 card purchases with the networks first. I'm an "indie" and I've already paid for the costs of the cards at least three times over. Oh, and shooting all day without having to download sure is nice, I'll agree with you on that.

And calling this a "historical documentary" doesn't really give us enough details for you to decide whether or not renting is worth it. If their goal is to shoot something like "John Adams" then sure, renting is not realistic. But I can rent a fully kitted-out HPX500 package with P2, tripod and monitor for just over $1,500 per week. Depending on their shooting schedule, it might not be a bad idea, especially if it assures they won't have issues with networks down the road.
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Well goody goody for you Steve. So glad you can afford the thousands of dollars for 32 gig cards. They may have paid for themselves 3 times over but theres still less money in your pocket at the end of the day than there could have been if a less costly solution could have been used.

Glad you can accept stopping to download after you shoot after a couple of minutes in the field while everyone waits for you.

And calling it a historical documentary doesn't give you enough details to decide that a rental would be more cost effective. Common sense would tell me that if he was doing a couple of days of shooting he wouldn't even be considering a purchase at all.

Have fun downloading in the field with a 960x 540 pixel shifted chip on expensive media in a form factor that has made orthopedic surgeons very wealthy.
 
stephenmick said:
Actually, with 96GB of P2, I don't have to stop and download at all.

P2 makes me money. Enjoy your ramen noodles.
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So will compact flash, SxS, MxS, sdhc etc. But they won't cost $4000 for 96 minutes of shoot time.

Glad to know Panasonic has your back.

Enjoy your loan payments or trust fund withdrawals.
 
Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it mico?

My cards have paid for themselves. Now they make me money hand over fist.

You must be speaking from your experience with loans and trust funds, not mine.
 
I would go with whichever camera your director of photography is most comfortable with. If you feel that shooting on an EX1 will give you the best possibility of getting distribution, find a DP that can and is comfortable shooting with an EX1.

Trying to force a DP to shoot in a format he is not familiar with or is not recommending for the shoot is asking for trouble down the road.

For that matter why not hire a DP with his own camera package?

What are the DPs actual problems with the EX1? Is it that you want to use the SD card solution with the camera?

Personally, while I find that many people have had extremely good experiences using SD cards I would never trust anything but Sony SxS or Panasonic's P2 cards for any kind of professional shoot I was involved with. I just don't find the risk to be worth it, whether real or perceived of using adapters for those SD cards. Then again I also would never use the Firestore either. Everytime something is 99.9% safe it seems that 0.1% seeks me out.
 
stephenmick said:
Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it mico?

My cards have paid for themselves. Now they make me money hand over fist.

You must be speaking from your experience with loans and trust funds, not mine.
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Upset at having spent $4000 when had you gone another route you could have spent $150 MxS or $1500 SxS for 2 hours of record time and still made money hand over fist.

Comprehension is not My problem.

And read about how the dynamic range of the EX1 compared to those big Panasonic cams you keep pushing:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=163080
 
Dafilman21 said:
Mico have you ever held the EX-1?
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I am not taking an antagonistic tone here but, what? Are you going to tell me its a beast to hand hold. We've all heard it before. There are solutions from from the very very cheap to the very very expensive. Pick one and it solves what no one should do with a small form factor cam which is handhold it without any support either on your shoulder or in your hands.

The beauty of the Ex1 is it can be either small or it can be shoulder rigged. It can be whatever you want. Once you're naturally big you can't get small.
 
evsdan said:
I would go with whichever camera your director of photography is most comfortable with. If you feel that shooting on an EX1 will give you the best possibility of getting distribution, find a DP that can and is comfortable shooting with an EX1.

Trying to force a DP to shoot in a format he is not familiar with or is not recommending for the shoot is asking for trouble down the road.

For that matter why not hire a DP with his own camera package?

What are the DPs actual problems with the EX1? Is it that you want to use the SD card solution with the camera?

Personally, while I find that many people have had extremely good experiences using SD cards I would never trust anything but Sony SxS or Panasonic's P2 cards for any kind of professional shoot I was involved with. I just don't find the risk to be worth it, whether real or perceived of using adapters for those SD cards. Then again I also would never use the Firestore either. Everytime something is 99.9% safe it seems that 0.1% seeks me out.
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And yet you still sell the Firestore. And yet there are many people , professional people that are known and respected here and elsewhere, who have taken MxS on important serious shoots for months now without any problems.
 
I understand all that Mico but you made it seem like the HVX is just terrible to hold. As you said there are many solutions to the handheld problem. I just had a problem with you jumping on the HVX for handheld use when the EX1 is actually worse for that purpose. They are both great cameras with different workflows that cater to different peoples likes and dislikes. I love the EX1 for locked down shots and things that need extreme detail. But I also love the HVX/HMC for its rendering of motion. Which I am sure we can agree the EX1 is not the best for fast motion. I guess what I am saying as a person who uses both sony and pana cameras don't trash someone else for there choices. That is simply just not cool.
 
mico said:
And yet you still sell the Firestore. And yet there are many people , professional people that are known and respected here and elsewhere, who have taken MxS on important serious shoots for months now without any problems.
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Correct, that is why I preempted that statement with personally. *I* wouldn't use those items, yet I do rent them, my company does sell them and they do work quite well.

My original statement still holds: Trust your cinematographer or get another one.
 
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