Jeremy Ordan
Major Contributor
You're too humble, this is the constantly evolving thread that can really teach anyone the ins and outs of audio. I think in another year this could be a novel though 
Jeremy
Jeremy
Everything I know about mics so far.
- Thread starter MattinSTL
- Start date
Jeremy Ordan
Major Contributor
Joe Kras said:it'll be long enough for a trilogy!
Are we still talking about the thread? OK, don't want this closed and locked...
There is this awesome DVD called light it right from vasst.com. I think that Matt should do a DVD called 'Sound Off' or something, just with the info from this thread.
-Jeremy
Matt Grunau
Adobe Demigod
TheYankee said:
I agree. Even IF the camera work was not as well as some, but you know damn well the sound will be killer. And as usual, I will gladly host tht footage.
Matt, you are being far too modest. Your posts here have helped hundreds, maybe thousands of people (as you know from a certain PM). Make a sticky or pdf, this is great stuff man!
Yankee, same goes out to you too. the both of you have contributed a crap ton of info. If it could all be put together, man, you dudes would look like celebritites.
Yeah, celebrities. Kinda like me after the wife thing that has somehow made it even into this thread. Hee hee hee.
newtodvx100a
Well-known member
I have to aggree with Matt on the ME66
I have to aggree with Matt on the ME66
I purchased the ME66 from recommendations on this site and a friend of mine. I have come to the same conclusion as Matt regarding chaseing the recording levels on the ME66. I don't have the cash to change right now but will in the future. Thank you for this post.
I have to aggree with Matt on the ME66
I purchased the ME66 from recommendations on this site and a friend of mine. I have come to the same conclusion as Matt regarding chaseing the recording levels on the ME66. I don't have the cash to change right now but will in the future. Thank you for this post.
MattinSTL
Sound Modulator
You could probably reel that me66 in a bit with an attenuation circuit... either the Shure adapter... one of the "MAX" adapters from Markertek... or I can do an attenuation cable for you.
-15db would help you out a whole lot... on pro broadcast cams there is an internal gain setting of -35... the DVX only goes down to -50... subtract 15 and what do you get? A controllable level for a mic who's high sensitivity was needed years ago... but is a problem on the DVX. Bottom line... if you have to live with that mic for a while an attenuator will improve the relationship.
-15db would help you out a whole lot... on pro broadcast cams there is an internal gain setting of -35... the DVX only goes down to -50... subtract 15 and what do you get? A controllable level for a mic who's high sensitivity was needed years ago... but is a problem on the DVX. Bottom line... if you have to live with that mic for a while an attenuator will improve the relationship.
Robert Eldon
Well-known member
Matt,
Can you explain what an attenuation circuit will do and how it improves the audio?
Can a small cable (as we have PM'd) with an attenuation circuit be used in line with a longer cable (25')?
Thanks.
Can you explain what an attenuation circuit will do and how it improves the audio?
Can a small cable (as we have PM'd) with an attenuation circuit be used in line with a longer cable (25')?
Thanks.
MattinSTL
Sound Modulator
Yes it can.
An attenuation cable will reduce a mic's hot output. It is a circuit of resistors designed to present a manageable load to the input.
I can't think of a good analogy, but it's like stuffing a sock in your friend's mouth because he can't stop screaming all the time... only this sock is magical in that you still hear him just as CLEARLY... but his blurting remarks are coming through at a level that's more comfortable to your ears.
I like to think of an me66 as an annoying friend that needs a little control until you can replace him with a better friend.
Man I need to switch to decaf.
A mixer provides supreme control over any mic through it's adjustable gain over a tremendous range... unfortunately the DVX isn't quite as versatile... within the DVX you have a choice of two gain settings (-50 and -60) and those are trimmed via the pots (dials) on the side of the cam. For mics such as the me66 and 4073a the -50db setting and use of the dials still results in a touchy performance with mics like the me66 and 4073a (or any super-hot mic).
If you know anything about engines/cars/motorcycles... then think of a vehicle with high horsepower versus high torque... Torque is user friendly and horsepower isn't... the me66 and 4073a are very high horsepower mics which need to be controlled to be usable... unless you add something to do this you keep spinning out when you needed traction.
Wow... another stupid anology.
Don't make me go into the difference between a donkey and an orange.
An attenuation cable will reduce a mic's hot output. It is a circuit of resistors designed to present a manageable load to the input.
I can't think of a good analogy, but it's like stuffing a sock in your friend's mouth because he can't stop screaming all the time... only this sock is magical in that you still hear him just as CLEARLY... but his blurting remarks are coming through at a level that's more comfortable to your ears.
I like to think of an me66 as an annoying friend that needs a little control until you can replace him with a better friend.
Man I need to switch to decaf.
A mixer provides supreme control over any mic through it's adjustable gain over a tremendous range... unfortunately the DVX isn't quite as versatile... within the DVX you have a choice of two gain settings (-50 and -60) and those are trimmed via the pots (dials) on the side of the cam. For mics such as the me66 and 4073a the -50db setting and use of the dials still results in a touchy performance with mics like the me66 and 4073a (or any super-hot mic).
If you know anything about engines/cars/motorcycles... then think of a vehicle with high horsepower versus high torque... Torque is user friendly and horsepower isn't... the me66 and 4073a are very high horsepower mics which need to be controlled to be usable... unless you add something to do this you keep spinning out when you needed traction.
Wow... another stupid anology.
Don't make me go into the difference between a donkey and an orange.
Robert Eldon
Well-known member
O.K. Got it! The 'CLEARLY' part is the key for me. Thanks for the explanation. Would you need an attenuation cable if you're going through a mixer?
Also, could you explain the difference between a donkey and ...
MattinSTL
Sound Modulator
RobertE said:
I don't want to complicate the issue... you would NEVER need an attenuation cable from the mic to mixer no matter how hot the mic is... but professional mixers typically output a signal that is +4 dbu. This is not a problem for professional audio components which are happy to SEE the +4dbu signal... but prosumer electronics (such as the DVX) are calibrated for -10dbu... so you may STILL need an attenuation cable for the feed from mixer to cam! With more expensive mixers such as the Shure FP33 or Sound Devices 302... you get a variable output from the mixer... so you can dial it back w/o the use of an attenuation cable.
Is this clearing up any for you?
not exactly , there are some mixers which dont have attenuation on their preamps , or dont have enouth , so if you work whith one like that you will need one ,bat the majority can handle very loud signals , if you record shooting from close range with dynamic mic you alwais can go directly to line ins ( that about 40-50 db attenuation )
Robert Eldon
Well-known member
Clear. Thank you.
newtodvx100a
Well-known member
Matt thanks for the info.
Matt thanks for the info.
Matt thanks for the great information. I wanted a mixer but everyone said it would add too much noise. This attenuator sounds like a needed addition to my gear. I have to confess I have to use the ME66 indoors also until I get another mic. :-(
Matt thanks for the info.
Matt thanks for the great information. I wanted a mixer but everyone said it would add too much noise. This attenuator sounds like a needed addition to my gear. I have to confess I have to use the ME66 indoors also until I get another mic. :-(
Now this statement just confuses the heck out of me.
Using a mixer bypasses the preamps in your camera (by using the mixer's preamps).
Most decent mixers have much better preamps then your camera mixer.
Therefore you end up with LESS noise by using a mixer, not more.
Just my $.02
timapter
Veteran
yeah, thats true joe. unless the mixer is a behringer. naturally, as long as the mixers pre amps and circuits are better than the cameras, you get better sound. if the mixer cost 2c, then the sound will be worse.
the dvx's preamps arent great, but theyre not actually that bad compared to some other camcorders i could mention...
the dvx's preamps arent great, but theyre not actually that bad compared to some other camcorders i could mention...
MattinSTL
Sound Modulator
I don't want to do the forum a disservice... but the mixer statement was one that I was just going to let go. I gotta' agree with Joe on that one... you'd have to try pretty hard to get a mixer with a worse gain stage then the DVX... sure the DVX is GREAT for a cam... but a mixer with worse mic-pre performance then that should be hard to find.
Every now and then an idea gets tossed onto one of these threads and it sounds as if it's coming from a lack of experience rather then a lack of knowledge... and trust me I would know all about this! I've said a lot of stuff early on which was later modified after some much needed experience! When I see stuff like that I'm torn between correcting the person and being seen as arrogant (a label that I hate, because I'm anything but)... or just putting the facts out there again for the hundredth time. Lately when I get that feeling I figure somebody else can knock that pin over...
I'm a big fan of Yankee's thread style... it gets to the point a lot quicker then this one did... but if you read these threads with a cup of coffee I'll bet you'd be surprised at how much you can pick up through everyone else's journey.
Nobody resisted a mixer more then I did... that was the LAST thing I wanted to buy! I'm ashamed of how I argued with some guys about the value of one... because I couldn't imagine ever being without a mixer again. Do you NEED a mixer to get acceptable audio? NO! Will a decent mixer improve your audio even if you only use it in the most basic function? YES! Can a person get equal results with the DVX only versus adding the COMPETENT use of a decent mixer? NO! A half-way decent mixer in capable hands will yield EASILY superior audio to simply recording direct to the camera. After that, when you look at all the other benefits, such as actually MIXING and riding levels... plus full audio awareness apart from the camera... jeez... as I said, I can't imagine being without one.
Every now and then an idea gets tossed onto one of these threads and it sounds as if it's coming from a lack of experience rather then a lack of knowledge... and trust me I would know all about this! I've said a lot of stuff early on which was later modified after some much needed experience! When I see stuff like that I'm torn between correcting the person and being seen as arrogant (a label that I hate, because I'm anything but)... or just putting the facts out there again for the hundredth time. Lately when I get that feeling I figure somebody else can knock that pin over...
I'm a big fan of Yankee's thread style... it gets to the point a lot quicker then this one did... but if you read these threads with a cup of coffee I'll bet you'd be surprised at how much you can pick up through everyone else's journey.
Nobody resisted a mixer more then I did... that was the LAST thing I wanted to buy! I'm ashamed of how I argued with some guys about the value of one... because I couldn't imagine ever being without a mixer again. Do you NEED a mixer to get acceptable audio? NO! Will a decent mixer improve your audio even if you only use it in the most basic function? YES! Can a person get equal results with the DVX only versus adding the COMPETENT use of a decent mixer? NO! A half-way decent mixer in capable hands will yield EASILY superior audio to simply recording direct to the camera. After that, when you look at all the other benefits, such as actually MIXING and riding levels... plus full audio awareness apart from the camera... jeez... as I said, I can't imagine being without one.
newtodvx100a
Well-known member
This was what Rush said @ EVS. I was inquiring about mixers and couldn't afford much, maybe $250. He said the DVX has a very low noise amp and anything in between would add noise unless I got in to the high end mixers. Of course I would by everything high end if I could. I was very proud just to get my hands on the G2 wireless, my ME66 with shockmount, wind screen and carbon fiber boom pole. But Wow, I need more money< . I still would like a mixer.
. I still would like a mixer.
Rush
DVXuser Sponsor
The higher end mixers have clean preamps. The lower end ones don't have a decent one, if any. Soundevices, is the best from what I have seen. Been on more Hollywood sets in the past 2 months than in my whole life, and every audio guy had Soundevices. It was crazy, almost cultish, but every one of them told me they sold whatever old mixer they had to get the sound devices after they heard the recordings.
http://www.sounddevices.com/products/index.html
They are very pricey, but worth it.
http://www.sounddevices.com/products/index.html
They are very pricey, but worth it.
newtodvx100a
Well-known member
Rush, thank you.
Rush, thank you.
Rush, as always you contine to help us wanna bees, (speaking for my self only). I only do weddings but I would like great sound. I thank every one here who gives us insite. I know the thousand dollars I spent on sound equipment ect. is not the tops but I am shooting to be the best I can be, with everyones help. Thanks again.
Rush, thank you.
Rush, as always you contine to help us wanna bees, (speaking for my self only). I only do weddings but I would like great sound. I thank every one here who gives us insite. I know the thousand dollars I spent on sound equipment ect. is not the tops but I am shooting to be the best I can be, with everyones help. Thanks again.
MattinSTL
Sound Modulator
The DVX has MORE THEN GOOD ENOUGH SOUND for weddings. Again, sound is subjective... but there isn't anybody who's gonna' be upset with the DVX audio performance on a $2K or under wedding video. If you use your mics properly and get them close enough then your clients will be thrilled.
Once you're ready for your first mixer you can look for a used Mixpre or FP24... the fp24 is a Shure mixer, but Sound Devices made it... and it's obvious when you see them. Getting a used one takes some patience, but they pop up at least a couple times per month on ebay.
You should be able to get a used one for some price between $350 and $450... up to $500 if "mint"... but the $350 one will still last you a lifetime if you want it to (although at that price it will look used).
Once you're ready for your first mixer you can look for a used Mixpre or FP24... the fp24 is a Shure mixer, but Sound Devices made it... and it's obvious when you see them. Getting a used one takes some patience, but they pop up at least a couple times per month on ebay.
You should be able to get a used one for some price between $350 and $450... up to $500 if "mint"... but the $350 one will still last you a lifetime if you want it to (although at that price it will look used).