EVA1 vs S1 for feature film?

D

deadhead

Active member
I'm about to buy 2 camera bodies for some 2 camera shoots, including a feature.

My plan was to get 2 eva1's but now the S1 has made me question what route to take,

I'm Even contemplating buying one of each, for 2 camera shoots. While there is no raw option for the S1, I did see mention of a 12 bit recording mode.

I'm using SLR magic Apo lenses and there are third party adpators from PL or EF mount to L mount.

I'm also wondering if the S1 being full Frame would allow for 2x anamorphic as opposed to using 1.33 on the Eva.

I realize there is no ND filters on the S1, but it should be getting scopes with Vlog upgrade.
 
I think the first question is, before considering camera body specs, etc. is simply: Do I want to shoot this feature on a rigged out mirrorless or a cinema camera body? I would forget everything else and simply think through crew and workflow tasks, what you are doing for stabilizers, audio, etc. etc.

After that, the next questions arise...

A shorter answer is that I think either is workable, of course dependent on the details of your shoot/crew/budget/etc., but either way the S1 is not on market yet and sure fire reliability is important.

When are you shooting? On the S1 there is also no 10-bit at launch except an HLG codec. It is unclear if that even includes via output to Atomos, which it may until the paid update comes out. As well, I expect the S1 to be a solid and reliable product on day 1 given panasonic's track record, but the EVA1 has been out for a over a year now which is reassuring.

Personally for my use cases, some of the reasons the S1 is appealing over the EVA1 don't seem to apply as much to a narrative feature film. The main appeal I would think would simply be price. If money was no object I would choose 2 EVA1s. Put another way, I wouldn't select an S1 because it is full frame, that's not really an advantage here IMO.

Not an answer, just some thoughts.

I can't speak to the Anamorphic questions.
 
If you are going to use the S1, I hope you have a good lens budget, as Leica CL and Panny S1 lenses are not cheap, and all are more than $1K ($1200-4K).
Cheers
 
I would personally not shoot a feature on a non Cine cam, though geabbing bcam or crash cam with smaller bodies, is what makes these cameras so great...,totally discreet on a street corner getting an establishing shot, especially with IBISlike on the GH5...if I used the EVA I would have to spend the money on an EVF....probably the Gratical Eye and I would shoot on an external recorder and the other cameras would go on the shoulder or handheld....the EVA would live on sticks....I don't care about light on the ACam so building it out to a decent production cam would be my choice...the image is lovely, and even with the accessories the price is still way below a Varicam 35 or LT, which would really be my first choice. I know it's not impossible to shoot a feature on GH cameras or S1s or Sony a7s but just as I would never shoot without lights or a grip Department or gaffer, or design, the camera would have to be robust and have the ergos of a dedicated Cine camera,....of course, that would just be my choice!
 
emailists said:
I'm about to buy 2 camera bodies for some 2 camera shoots, including a feature.

My plan was to get 2 eva1's but now the S1 has made me question what route to take,

I'm Even contemplating buying one of each, for 2 camera shoots. While there is no raw option for the S1, I did see mention of a 12 bit recording mode.

I'm using SLR magic Apo lenses and there are third party adpators from PL or EF mount to L mount.

I'm also wondering if the S1 being full Frame would allow for 2x anamorphic as opposed to using 1.33 on the Eva.

I realize there is no ND filters on the S1, but it should be getting scopes with Vlog upgrade.
Click to expand...

Why do you think the S1 would be a good alternative to the EVA1? Just because it has a FF sensor? Why is that? Almost every other aspect of the S1 could be considered inferior to the EVA1 except for two things. 1. its a small form factor and 2. the sensor is bigger. But who cares if the sensor is bigger really? That doesn't always translate into better quality. Canon DSLRs have been FF for years and yet have massively inferior quality to the EVA1.

Right now the S1 has very consumer targeted video features because its intended market is photographers who also want to shoot video. Professional photographers were less likely to use m43 sensor cameras so from that perspective the S1 makes perfect sense. From a film making perspective however it really isn't the best choice. In fact from a pure matching s35mm look perspective one is probably much better off with a GH5s with a Speedbooster. You get the low light performance and dual native ISO from the GH5s sensor and the Speedbooster gives you the FOV and DOF much closer to the EVA1.
 
Why would you shoot a feature on a full frame camera? Super35 is really the cinematic sensor size. Pulling focus on a full frame sensor could be a real nightmare. The DOF is so shallow. EVA1 for sure for this reason.

Also the body of the eva, while not a varicam is more rugged, and for a feature with a lot of grading. The codec will also be more rugged, or you can opt to shoot in Raw for ultimate flexibility. Another reason to go EVA1.

And If you need shots from an agility camera or ninja cam, I'd probably get a Gh5 and speed boost the sensor to match the EVA. So you can use the same lenses.

In my opinion full frame cameras are photographic, super35 is cinematic.

good luck
 
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Alex Derrick said:
Why would you shoot a feature on a full frame camera? Super35 is really the cinematic sensor size. Pulling focus on a full frame sensor could be a real nightmare. The DOF is so shallow. EVA1 for sure for this reason.

Also the body of the eva, while not a varicam is more rugged, and for a feature with a lot of grading. The codec will also be more rugged, or you can opt to shoot in Raw for ultimate flexibility. Another reason to go EVA1.

And If you need shots from an agility camera or ninja cam, I'd probably get a Gh5 and speed boost the sensor to match the EVA. So you can use the same lenses.

In my opinion full frame cameras are photographic, super35 is cinematic.

good luck
Click to expand...

You live in Hollywood (unless it's Holllywood with 3 ls how you have it written here)...you should know every single cinema camera company (besides Panasonic and Blackmagic) released a full-frame cinema camera within the last year or so! :engel017:
 
With speedboosters reaching FF format from S35 sensors I'd say the benefit of a native FF video camera is not worth it. A real S35 video camera is so much nicer, reliable and faster to work with.
 
NorBro said:
You live in Hollywood (unless it's Holllywood with 3 ls how you have it written here)...you should know every single cinema camera company (besides Panasonic and Blackmagic) released a full-frame cinema camera within the last year or so! :engel017:
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Agreed, but if you take The Revenant for example, only a small portion of the film, was filmed on the 65....most was filmed on the regular s35 mm Alexa's....to shoot full frame open would drastically slow down a shoot day, something especially relevant when working with an expensive crew. I think it's a bit of practicality (there are the ocassional shots, for example endless landscape establishing shots for the largersensor would do best) and also a bit of a statement (we are also in the FF sensor club!. But even on big budget shoots the high end DPs are happy in an around F4 and up, because getting the shot in a reasonable amount of time, and not missing that "best take" the actor/actors give them, is on their shoulders.
 
disregarding the question of sensor size for the moment, the EVA1 is designed primarily as a professional video production machine. Every function and feature is weighted in that direction. With no offense toward my brothers & sisters in the Panasonic Consumer division, the S1 is designed as a stills camera first and a video camera second. For your main production camera you will find it far easier to do the work you wish to do using the EVA1. Certainly there can be particular shots where an S1 will be the better choice, but the vast majority of the time you will find the EVA1 the optimal solution.
 
Here's my take, from the corporate & doc world with some low-budget indie features tossed in.

It's too early to commit to a S1 for an involved shoot
Using a stills/mirrorless/hybrid camera can be OK one all the bugaboos, kit, and workaround issues are known. Does the camera overheat? Which lens adapters are reliable all of the time? Any timecode issues? What gak do you really need to make the camera workable on a busy stressed-out set? The S1 is pretty intriguing, so within a few months of its release, that stuff will be worked out. Can you wait that long? Or do you have the time and money to figure everything out before your first important shoot?

The EVA1 makes really nice pictures
And it's been out for a bit so some early issues have been addressed in firmware updates, enough of us have worked with or been on jobs with the EVA1 so the general filmmaking community has a good sense of where it works well and where you might need to accept some compromises or look for a different camera. But for low-budget features, it seems like a really nice choice.

So what to do?

Rent an EVA1 (or get a demo unit from you local dealer) and run some tests.
Not just to see how nice the pictures are (they're really nice), but to see how well it fits into a shoot similar to a feature (ie- with a crew size, locations, etc similar to what you expect to encounter). Run sound to camera (it's not so bad!) or do double-system sound. If it's your thing, roll to an external recorder. See how the camera and its footage fits into overall production and post production workflow works for you.

Then if/when you like the EVA1, buy one. One.
If/when you need a second, you'll find EVA1 already widely available for rent (if not locally, then from at least two fairly reliable online renters... I just checked). And for really reasonable prices. Sure, you could buy two off the bat, but then you'll also need to buy two sets of batteries, chargers, etc.

And then maybe try renting a S1 in a few months after seeing what others have found out about the camera and see how it works for you.

AND THEN AND ONLY THEN :) you'll know if you want to buy a second EVA1 or a S1 to go with your first EVA1.

But for me, when things get super busy on a shoot, it's really nice to be working with a camera designed first and foremost to record really nice moving images. AND it's really nice to only have to think about one model camera during the shoot. There's more than enough stress and pages to work through to make dealing with a jerry-rigged camera a real drag. And in post, matching images from two identical cameras is quite nice, no?
 
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emailists said:
I'm about to buy 2 camera bodies for some 2 camera shoots, including a feature.
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The key word here is SOME two camera shoots.

ONE of these shoots is a feature all the rest of the shoots are NOT features!

A feature film can use a mirrorless camera. A feature film has time for the A/C to apply ND in the matte box, a feature has separate sound and someone running a slate.

Most likely the other shoots, maybe corporate for example, onboard ND and onboard sound will become basically super useful.

Id go EVA1 all the way.

(apart from considering Fs7, BMC or used F5/55 or canon C200)
 
fboonzaier said:
Agreed, but if you take The Revenant for example, only a small portion of the film, was filmed on the 65....most was filmed on the regular s35 mm Alexa's....to shoot full frame open would drastically slow down a shoot day, something especially relevant when working with an expensive crew. I think it's a bit of practicality (there are the ocassional shots, for example endless landscape establishing shots for the largersensor would do best) and also a bit of a statement (we are also in the FF sensor club!. But even on big budget shoots the high end DPs are happy in an around F4 and up, because getting the shot in a reasonable amount of time, and not missing that "best take" the actor/actors give them, is on their shoulders.
Click to expand...

The Revenant is just one example filmed in 2015 and none of the cameras I am talking about existed then.

How, when, and why they are used is a different conversation. I'm just saying the companies must be seeing something about the future and are making FF cinema cameras their top models.

[MONSTRO, C700 FF, VENICE, ALEXA LF]

But in general, I think most would agree with your thoughts...especially when the best focus pullers in Hollywood are missing focus with S35 sensors in many movies.
 
NorBro said:
.... I'm just saying the companies must be seeing something about the future and are making FF cinema cameras their top models.

[MONSTRO, C700 FF, VENICE, ALEXA LF]
..
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They see the need to generate revenue with new products. It tells me that they have done just about all they can with S35 and are looking to find a new platform to sell. It's a platform few need. Film has stayed at s35 for decades with 65mm being the exception. Sure, 65mm film is much more costly than 35mm, but if there were a true need/market for 65mm, it would be used a lot more. I would think the same applies to digital.

But once they are on full frame, they have some new real estate to 8k and (ugh) 16k with the possibilities of better dynamic range.
 
It's definitely a part of it (making more $$$ always is), but I also think it's happening because the technology and improved knowledge is readily available.

I believe it would have happened much sooner if it was possible...or easier to accomplish.

These companies appear to be larger than life (and they are), but sometimes they seem to struggle to improve (for years) the most 'basic' features like auto-focus or low light capabilities. I'm assuming it took some time to build a noteworthy high-end full-frame $30K-$40K-$50K cinema camera with some of these specifications they are now offering.
 
I shudder to think what a proper FF cinema zoom costs. I didn't see any for sale on B&H. I don't see any on the Alexa or Panavision sites.
 
Jim Feeley said:
But for me, when things get super busy on a shoot, it's really nice to be working with a camera designed first and foremost to record really nice moving images. AND it's really nice to only have to think about one model camera during the shoot. There's more than enough stress and pages to work through to make dealing with a jerry-rigged camera a real drag. And in post, matching images from two identical cameras is quite nice, no?
Click to expand...

Its worth also considering that it can really work to have two identical sets of lenses. Or at least the main ones. FOr example doing drama (a feature) one may want to cross shoot on the same lens.

(shooting a wide and a tight just fooks the boom ops - yes you need two on a multicam feature!)

Overall not worrying about 'which one?' is a huge boon, or you end up with the B cam getting lonely while the A cam is being wangled between crane, gimbal and sticks.

Needing to double everything may push you towards the cheaper camera system.
 
 
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