Erased - feature trailer

taormina said:
One other thing - before you start sulking and questioning the value of this forum....let me give you a quote that my "mentor" said to me after he saw my first short.

"I see nothing in this short that tells me you are a director. I suggest you quit directing, and get into producing if you want to be involved in movies. It's a shame you had to play your shots so wide, and there is no visual style at all to your work."

Pretty harsh, hey? And you know what? That came from an A list producer who has a movie in the theaters RIGHT NOW, and has produced dozens of features and TV shows. His movies are filled with A listers!!!!

Dude, my friend is the real thing and he shut me down in my tracks. The bulk of these DVX user folks are hobbyists or no one in particular. How do you think i felt being "insulted" by a real industry pro? Like shi*.

But it's the best advice I have ever been given.

It's up to you to either feel miserable, keep defending your work, or suck it up and move on.
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To be honest I have no idea what point you're trying to make here. It's definitely important to take other people's critique and criticisms, but only when they're being constructive. Your producer insults you but at the same time he give you a good tip on the wide shot. Look at some of the "comments" that filmmkr recently got: "You wasted other people's time," "You suck," "You're being stubborn." Does "listening" to these things help improve his skill? I see no defensiveness at all in his replies. This thread has gone on for more than 100 posts and most of those posts are him making refinements to his work and asking for feedback.

 
I think you should go back and read the thread again. From the beginning I was open to the criticism. I even asked for clarification on "flat" and other things and immediately said I was going to make changes and fix those problems once I fully understood what various people were talking about. I even said something like "I think I know what you're talking about and I can fix that". If you want I can go back and actually quote my posts an give you the links or post # for them. Other suggestions have been made and I've been attempting addressing those changes (i.e. soft light transfer mode and color correction), posted examples, and asked for additional input and help. I've posted a new trailer and asked for input and got one person, tmnt, who said it was an improvement.

I'm not discouraged. I meant that some others might be if they come here to get feedback and get treated the same way I've been treated by some of you here. I simply tune some of you out that are being unreasonable. I've had people watch the full movie and thought it was good, that I'm a good director, and that I really do have a future as a filmmaker. And that is from people I trust to give me honest feedback (they even made suggestions for improvement) and some who work in the industry.

Shot composition: You're basing your opinion and my skills as a director and filmmaker off a couple shots in a trailer. Haven't you ever seen a good movie that had a bad trailer? How about a bad movie that had a really good trailer? I can say "yes" to both. Don't judge a book by its cover. Just because you see one wide shot in the trailer doesn't mean all the shots in the movie are wide.

I'm not saying my movie is perfect. I know it's not. Aside from equipment it was shot for less than $10k in 2 weeks. That means we didn't have the budget I would have liked for locations, set design, or to allow more shooting time. With being strapped for time and behind schedule most of the shoot compromises had to be made as far as shot coverage. With those limitations it's hard to come even close to perfect... plus there's no such thing as perfect.

The main problem.... You're knocking the entire movie and my abilities and you haven't even seen the movie.
 
The point I was trying to make was to tune out the haters. My guy told me to quit!!!! I'm not going to listen to that crap. Selectively take what you can get from the criticism and knock 'em dead next time. Show them that you won't just turn tail and give up.
 
"Quit directing" can be very constructive criticism. It depends who says that. But i think we can be the first judge of our work, we must relate our judgement to where we want to go and evaluate our limits and how distant we are.
I post my stuff here as aspiring filmaker for a reality check, if someone doenst buy my trailer i cannot blame he didnt see the whole movie. I've already lost.
I've lost because i'm tryng to work in the show business.
This is a friendly environment, if someone is saying my stuff is lacking something they are giving me something. Out there if your work sucks you are just ignored.
BTW, i love this: http://www.hollywoodcamerawork.us/
 
ok enough of this.

Flmmkr - I have been feeding you advice and havent gotten on your case - but i do have to admit you are one of the most defensive people asking for advice on this board. You may not realize it but you are coming across that way.

You qualify each acceptance. I shouldnt have used white walls BUT I meant to do it. Compositions maybe could be better BUT they are better in the material you are not seeing.

I have told you there is almost no difference between the 2 color corrected shots you sent back - you say but there is more in FCP - you are clearly exporting wrong so go figure out that issue. You have a techniques now to make it look better - so go get a frame exported - and dont worry about defending.

You made some major mistakes in this project and that translates into some uninspired material in the trailer - take those points of cirticism and become better and DONT defend against them or make excuses - you asked for feedback by posting so you cant be upset if it is too harsh. And the more defensive you get the more people will be harsh. Defensiveness brings out the lions to comment.

You are very lucky that so many people have taken the time to comment regardless of their tone.

And to everyone being overly harsh - lets just ease up a little. The harsher you are the less likely someone is willing to listen.
 
First off...congrats on making a feature. You should use it as a GREAT learning experience. Congrats also on the webiste and all of its extras. Very cool.

In my opinion, the trailer is very dull and average at best. The "look and feel" of the images is flat and does not really do anything for me. It looked like every other "video." Better lighting design, shallow depth of field, set design, and some post CC would have really spiced it up. Just my two cents...

Good luck and keep the dream!!!
 
This thread makes me want to cry, a little bit, and I won't even go into it, but I will give some constructive advice that hasn't been given.

flmmkr: The underlying problem between the debate here between you and "Your Detractors" is that they are trying to teach you, with words, something that can't truly be taught with words. It's a concept that can be expressed, verbally between two people that have the same understanding, but if both people don't, then the first simply confuses the second.

For example, if I were to eat ice cream, and you've never eaten ice cream, I could try to talk about it with you, and approximate it, but there's a good chance I wouldn't get the point across. Or perhaps a more applicable comparison, if you were color blind, and I tried to talk to you about the difference between the colors red and purple, I could explain it all day but you wouldn't see it, ever. You would insist over and over that your purple was red, or that you really WANTED it to be purple, whereas I might think red is more appropriate. You wouldn't be wrong, or right, you just wouldn't realize that there was a distinction between the two.

I'm not going to tell you that your shots are too "red", and not "purple" enough, because I'm afraid there is a level of film aesthetic interpretation that you might not have developed just yet, a cinematographic "color blindness", if you will.

But I will tell you, ABSOLUTELY, how to fix it.

I want you to pick one of your favorite movies, preferably from very stylized directors, and take one scene, and if you don't want to take a scene, just take one moment. Don't LOOK at the scene, just -think- about it. It'll be better if it's a movie you haven't seen in a long time.

Get one actor, or use yourself, and re-create that scene, re-stage it, re light it, to the best of your ability. To this end, it'd be better NOT to pick movies like (say) Star Wars. Pick domestic things that you can actually shoot yourself. A bedroom. A kitchen. A park. Someone writing in a book. Etc. ("Jules and Vincent open the trunk of a car and discuss shotguns.")

Now. Shoot that scene, or just that still image.

Now, load up the original, and take a screen capture of two "identical" moments, and compare the two.

Do this two or three times a day for a month, and I promise you, you'll be one of the better visual filmmakers on this board. No one does that sort of thing, because no one really has that much of a work ethic, but I have complete confidence that this will make your filmmaking more palatable.

NOTE: If after your first side by side comparison, you don't see any fundamental differences, ask your friends which shot is "cooler", and how much cooler. If your friends are systematically picking the shot you didn't stage, then you have work to do.

Not to toot my own horn (which is exactly what I'm about to do), but this is very good advice, and you should probably consider taking it.
 
WOW, that was incredible advice. very well written AND I hope this advice resonates with ALL OF US, and not just for filmmkr, because we're all in the same boat...
Thanx!
I think that the kind of criticism that is received here (in general, not in this particular topic) is more valuable than ANY award or accolade or acceptance or whatever... because we make ourselves work harder and consequently make better work.
Keep it up filmmkr... perseverence and hard work count more than just having talent...
 
Like machardi said, we shouldn't only be telling you what's wrong with it, we should be telling you how to fix it. Since I only did the former, I apolagize for that.

I noticed that you will be DP-ing for a short. I will try to help you with my limited knowledge so your next project will look much better.

In the trailer, one reason lots of people mentioned that is flat is not only because of the white walls or bland art direction but also the lack of lighting.

I know you are going for a naturalistic or reality look but let's face it, people go to a cinema expecting a cinematic look so even a naturalistic look got to fit the perception of a cinematic look. Shows like 'The Shield' and '24' have a 'reality' look going on but it is still cinematic.

Here is an example of how to use creative lighting to create a better mood for your movie even if you have very little to work with.

The pics are costume test shots from a neo noir feature I am currently in pre production.

Test3a.jpg

Test3b.jpg


Similiar situation to yours. Blank white walls, lack of any set decoration.

But with creative use of lighting and a few lightstands, I managed to create an atmospheric look out of something bland with just one redhead.

However, that is not really enough as it is still a bit flat.

Take a look at this still from a one minute noir-ish video I did for a competition recently using the same actor and costume as the basis. (Take note that it wasn't this dark on my master. The conversion to mp4 darkens the video considerably).

It was shot in my dad's office. The place was really bland, white walls, just a table here and there and a filing cabinet. Not exactly the most flattering of location.

The equipments used were a Panasonic DVX, two redheads and a few lightstands.

The windows blinds patterns were created by sticking rows and rows of gaffer tape between two light stands placed in front of a red head pointing to the subject at a 45 degree angle.

Sample2.jpg


However, to further enhance the 3D look a redhead was placed directly opposite the keylight behind the subject for this femme fatale shot.

Sample1.jpg


Sample5.jpg


Even if we don't have lights sometimes, we can play with shadows such as in this silhouetted shot.


Sample4.jpg


Also notice that in closeups, I really try to filled my subject up in the frame. From your trailer, yours seem to lack closeups that really filled the frame.

Next is depth of field. From your trailer, there is a serious lack of shallow DOF, even in closeups. I know with 1/3 ccd camera, it is hard to achieve the really shallow look but it can't be done with clever camera placement and framing.

Sample3.jpg


For example in this picture, I know I won't have enough place to put the camera far away for the shallow DOF hence I use a different method of achieving it by placing the female closer to the camera hence still giving me the 'foreground out of focus' look. My background is dark enough and not so striking that it stands out.

This shot also demonstrates the shallow DOF that we can achieve if we have enough space.

sample9.jpg


sample7.jpg


I also desaturate the colour more in this scene so it doesn't look too harsh.

Well, that's about it. Hope this helps you in making your next project better. While my stuff might be a little too low key for you but the point of this post is to demonstrate what lighting can do for you work.
 
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smelni said:
ok enough of this.

Flmmkr - I have been feeding you advice and havent gotten on your case - but i do have to admit you are one of the most defensive people asking for advice on this board. You may not realize it but you are coming across that way.

You qualify each acceptance. I shouldnt have used white walls BUT I meant to do it. Compositions maybe could be better BUT they are better in the material you are not seeing.
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Sorry that letting you know what my thought process was is being defensive. Just letting you know what I was thinking to see what you thought of it. I never said I was right and someone else was wrong about what suggestion was. To me that would be being defensive. From now on I guess I'll be like a passive broken record and just say "Okay I see what your saying. Thanks for the advice." every time someone makes a comment. Personally, when I comment on something someone did I'd like to know why they did what they did. I might find something else new myself or be able to offer better advice. For what it's worth, I did say I wouldn't do those things again because it obviously is a detractor from the movie.

smelni said:
I have told you there is almost no difference between the 2 color corrected shots you sent back - you say but there is more in FCP - you are clearly exporting wrong so go figure out that issue. You have a techniques now to make it look better - so go get a frame exported - and dont worry about defending.
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And I told you my method of exporting and asked if anyone knew why they weren't exporting the same. No response. Instead I get more of the same crap from everyone here. I'm trying to make it better, and some like you are helping a little, but I still get the same criticism over and over and over and over and over and over again.

smelni said:
You made some major mistakes in this project and that translates into some uninspired material in the trailer - take those points of cirticism and become better and DONT defend against them or make excuses - you asked for feedback by posting so you cant be upset if it is too harsh. And the more defensive you get the more people will be harsh. Defensiveness brings out the lions to comment.

You are very lucky that so many people have taken the time to comment regardless of their tone.

And to everyone being overly harsh - lets just ease up a little. The harsher you are the less likely someone is willing to listen.
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THIS IS FRIGGIN AGGRAVATING!

I try to get help. I say I know my movie isn't perfect. I ask for more details on some of the comments. I say I'm making changes. I say I learned a lot from making this movie. I say I know what is being referred to as far as problems with the movie. I say I'm trying to incorporate some of the better shots into the new trailer. I ask for feedback on the new trailer and get only one comment. I say there's things I will do differently next time.

SO WHY THE HELL DO I NEED TO KEEP HEARING THE SAME COMMENTS OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN!? I HEARD IT AND UNDERSTOOD IT THE FIRST TIME!!!

Bottom line... I don't think I'm being defensive for the way I've been treated. How would you feel if a couple people commented that the trailer looks flat or lacked composition and then gave some details about it... then I say I understand now and will make changes... then 50 more people give the same comment or say the trailer sucks without giving any advice or suggestions beyond what's already been said, and I haven't even had a chance to make those changes yet??? I've been bombarded with the same comments over and over and over and over and over again. You too would lash out at some of the people that are here just to bash and offer no advice or suggestions.

If you're here to help me and offer some advice and suggestions, THEN GREAT! Bring it on. I'm happy to listen and learn and make it better. Otherwise... BACK OFF!

If you think I'm the one being overly rude and harsh now, I really don't give a sh*t because I've had about enough. 3 days ago I posted the new cut of my trailer and I've gotten only one response on it. Instead I've gotten more of the same BS comments that I'm just tired of hearing. Don't think I'm not listening so you have to repeat it. I heard it, took it in, and I'm working on things.
 
Im sorry you feel slighted here - it should just be a place for advice - tone, meaning and intention can get lost on message boards
 
Machardi and Vincent:

Both of your posts are very good and helpful. Thank you for posting them. This is the kind of advice that I'm talking about. And they are helpful to me and to any aspiring filmmaker out there.

Vincent, Clearly I can see that with the amount of work you've done in just pre-production that we did not spend nearly enough time or planning in pre-production ourselves.
 
I think the main detracting factor in your trailer is the acting. Sure, some of your shots aren't as interestingly composed as they could be, but those are simple beginners mistakes that I'm currently making myself. Eventually with experience you'll weed those out. A lot of it looks pretty good. I personally think you could and should go further with your grading. Really stylize it. Crush your blacks, up the contrast and change the color temperature. Play with it. I've seen worse, believe me. This thread feels like film school...a lot of people talking trash without anything better to offer or show. I'd just ignore those and listen to those of us who have something constructive to offer, and this thread will get back on track.

Have you considred posting a scene for us? Maybe we could get a better feel for things that way.
 
I've done that crushing of the blacks and increasing of the contrast with my new changes. For some reason it doesn't show in the Quicktime Movie export. It certainly shows in FCP, but I don't know why the export doesn't work nearly as well. I have the sequence set to 8bit rendering, DVCProHD codec, and I choose use current settings with the Quicktime Export window. I've also tried Compressor and get the same results. I have no idea why it isn't working. I've tried some different color temperatures and haven't found anything that I like that's different from the way it is now (and I mean with the changes I've made that you can't see with the export issues).
 
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i dont work with fcp - but make sure you have the correct layer selected to output and that your output settings are selectively choosing layers or tracks

that is a mistake easily made in avid
 
I'm not selecting any specific layers. I'm trying to export the entire sequence. I don't know of any way to export just a selection in FCP, but I'll look into it.

What I did was take that particular clip from the movie and put it in a separate sequence with the identical settings of my main sequence. That way I would only export just that part. I think it should work, but it doesn't. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
 
that isprobably causing your issue - you should try setting an in and out point and exporting using those points
 
Apple (Command) A, followed by Shift A will select the entire sequence then put I/O markers in for the whole sequence. (If the timeline is selected first with a single click). Then Export with current settings.

Same thing applies with selecting a single clip in a sequence and then Shift A, I/O points are inserted for the length of that clip.
 
Okay, I just tried that method. Set in/out points in the original sequence. Select Export/Quicktime Movie and I get the same result. Select the layers (V1, V2, V3 tracks) in the timeline, then select Export Quicktime Movie and I get the same result. I also tried the "Recompress All Frames" option and that didn't work either. I still have a very different image in my canvas than I do in the Quicktime movie that gets exported. Any other ideas?
 
Are you talking 'gamma issue' difference, or 'where have all my effects gone' difference?
What codec are you writing out to?
 
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