Epic and Scarlet release in 2010

[snowleopard]

Well, they just did deliver the first Epic (nearly three years after first announcing). I don't however know the production rate. Or when they'll be ordered and you get one in a week. That may be months away. I think they are probably like Red One here, where it's one camera at a time, and these new owners are likely to be beta testers.

I still have a feeling it's going to be quite a while until Scarlets are in store to order, and they'll likely be in the $10k and up range for a full working system. Maybe more. So no worries if you wish to hit that snooze button.

 

[Razz16mm]

Well, they just did deliver the first Epic (nearly three years after first announcing). I don't however know the production rate. Or when they'll be ordered and you get one in a week. That may be months away. I think they are probably like Red One here, where it's one camera at a time, and these new owners are likely to be beta testers.

I still have a feeling it's going to be quite a while until Scarlets are in store to order, and they'll likely be in the $10k and up range for a full working system. Maybe more. So no worries if you wish to hit that snooze button.

My estimated budget for a Scarlet interchangeable package hit $10k two years ago. It is realistically around the entry level price of other 2/3" HD cameras when configured with the same features.

The announcement for the Epic and Scarlet modular camera system was 11/14/2008, so they have been just over two years in development. I still have the printout of the original announcement. It took them about a year to develop the hardware to prototype stage, and it has taken them about a year to debug and develop the firmware to match.

These cameras are not at all like Red 1, they are designed from the ground up for volume assembly line production, so the ramp up and delivery should be much more efficient.

 

[Kit Hannah]

The announcement for the Epic and Scarlet modular camera system was 11/14/2008, so they have been just over two years in development. I still have the printout of the original announcement. It took them about a year to develop the hardware to prototype stage, and it has taken them about a year to debug and develop the firmware to match.

These cameras are not at all like Red 1, they are designed from the ground up for volume assembly line production, so the ramp up and delivery should be much more efficient.

Thanks for clarifying that Razz. Puts it into better perspective for people.

You know what I think is funny, how long do you guys think Panasonic and Sony and Canon and JVC take for their cameras to go from an idea stage to full production? RED has just been very open about the process and feeding information to the masses as things develop, giving all but a play by play. Their communication with the video community on a regular basis is the key for them. Obviously doing it that way though, it has enraged many people and they got the RED bug, like crack, they got a little taste now they want more. 2 years is not an unreasonable amount of time to develop a product like this. I think it's pretty quick, actually. 2 years ago it was revolutionary, today it's still revolutionary. The big companies just aren't nearly as vocal and don't communicate like Jim and the RED team does. But make no mistake, the others are spending years on their product development too.

 

[Barry_Green]

You know what I think is funny, how long do you guys think Panasonic and Sony and Canon and JVC take for their cameras to go from an idea stage to full production?

AF100 was May 2009 for inception, to Dec. 2010 for delivery.

 

[Zacatac]

AF100 was May 2009 for inception, to Dec. 2010 for delivery.

But they also had a base camera to design off of, and codes that although they had to rewrite, they still had people that knew panasonics coding.


RED built from scratch, took little from the RED One

 

[Kit Hannah]

AF100 was May 2009 for inception, to Dec. 2010 for delivery.

Okay, so 1 1/2 years. I'm sure other cameras have been quicker, and others have taken longer. So for RED, they have one camera under their belt. Panasonic has hundreds and a much higher budget R&D department as well as many more resources. I would say that RED is doing a pretty decent job thus far for where they are.

I want people to know that I am not a RED fanboy, I just respect what they're doing. Although having a RED camera in the future would be interesting, I don't see myself getting one anytime soon because I simply don't need it. I won't use the capabilities of it for anything practical in the forseeable future. I too have given a shot at manufacturing video equiment (monitors, didn't work out) and I know how hard and time consuming of a process it is. Remember, RED does not "owe" people a damn thing, so keep that in mind when being pissed off for them not delivering things on time. Yeah, their tools will be great, obviously the RED One is a wonderful tool. As I said earlier though, but what you can use today and start making money with today. Someone will surely pick up that 6 month old AF100 or 5D from you for good money if you decide to go RED when it is released.

 

[milksac]

The big companies just aren't nearly as vocal and don't communicate like Jim and the RED team does.

They can't communicate like Jim and the RED team does because they are publicly traded companies. If RED was a publicly traded company the SEC regulations would prevent them from making preposterous claims like 3K for $3K, Red Ray availble soon, etc., etc., etc. Publicy traded companies are held to a higher standard. Privately held companies can boast like a snake oil salesman if they choose to conduct their business in that fashion.

 

[Kit Hannah]

They can't communicate like Jim and the RED team does because they are publicly traded companies. If RED was a publicly traded company the SEC regulations would prevent them from making preposterous claims like 3K for $3K, Red Ray availble soon, etc., etc., etc. Publicy traded companies are held to a higher standard. Privately held companies can boast like a snake oil salesman if they choose to conduct their business in that fashion.

Whch oviously they have. Something is working for them.

I think RED puts it out there to get responses to what they are doing so they can improve their product. They probably could have released the Scarlet body for $3k if they used what they were planning then. They probably still could. But changes and necessary improvements make the cost go up. I would bet that the big companies do the same thing. I bet there are cameras that Panasonic said "lets get this thing to the consumer for $3k". Ended up being $6k because of changes. The general public may not have known that, but RED decided long ago on transparency. IMHO, they are 2 different styles of going about things, both effective in their own way.

 

[milksac]

IMHO, they are 2 different styles of going about things, both effective in their own way.

To say they are different 'styles' is inaccurate. It's more accurate to say that one group of companies has to follow a set of regulations and the other does not. RED would have a completely different 'style', as you say, if they had to follow the same regulations as the big companies (or any other publicly held company for that matter). Likewise, if the big companies were allowed to hype products that don't exist they would have a different 'style'.

 

[Kit Hannah]

To say they are different 'styles' is inaccurate. It's more accurate to say that one group of companies has to follow a set of regulations and the other does not. RED would have a completely different 'style', as you say, if they had to follow the same regulations as the big companies (or any other publicly held company for that matter). Likewise, if the big companies were allowed to hype products that don't exist they would have a different 'style'.

Big companies do hype products that have not been released, through press releases of planned products. It was no secret the AF100 was coming. There was plenty of speculation floating around for a long time. RED just happens to be using the hype engine to their advantage. While the big companies may not (or as you say cannot) use the same practices, I think they do, it's just that many products are not nearly as revolutionary as the RED seems to be nor are they talked aout in the same way or nearly as much. They have people out there (such as Jan) that are commenting and correcting people on upcoming products, and while she's not necessarily 'hyping' them directly, I think most of the "onlookers" is really where most of the hype is coming from in RED's case. I think Sony and Panasonic slowly leak info out through different channels too, RED is just open and direct and up front about it, directly engaged so to speak.

 

[Rick Burnett]

Well Panasonic has years of experience, so they have a streamlined engineering process for all the parts of the camera that aren't anything new persay. Whereas, with RED, they started from Scratch for the Red One. They can say they started from scratch on the Epic, but that is not entirely true, because their EXPERIENCE from making the Red One is driving decisions for the Epic. They are using their history of engineering to shorter the production time on the Epic in certain areas because I am sure they've learned what didn't work for them and what they want to improve and not make the same mistake twice.

I think it's probably without question that most people will expect the AF100 will work, out of the box, and well. Whereas they are quite a few people who are afraid of the Epic from the problems they had with the Red One in the beginning. Red is just too young to have a track record for people to feel one way or another.

For instance, the FIRST question someone asked me about the AF100 was about the headphone jack. Why? Because the HVX200 has a headphone jack that breaks too easily (and ours is now broke too).

I think there will be some bumpiness in the Red Epic-S once they are mass produced, but hopefully it will be quickly resolved.

 

[Rick Burnett]

It is not unreasonable at all compared to market prices, but the way it was marketed etc which is really bad. If more or less from the start it was said that it would be in that price range many would not have complained or be disappointed because they would have known from the start if they can afford it or not. But many have waited about 3 years for this camera because it was in there budget and then just by magic the price is increase by 80% and out of there budget. No matter what type of functionality it will have more, they are just priced out of it.

The only good thing now for them is that at least there will be alternatives in this market segment, from the Panasonic af-100, Sony nxcam and Sony F3. The irony is that it will be the Sony and Panasonic of this world who will cater for the indy crowd and red be the elitist one!!! How time has changed from red the champ of the indies, who would bring the cinema quality to the indies.

I will definitely agree that their marketing was HORRIBLE on this. From what I've read, I don't think they even get it why people are upset at least (or in my case, have that feeling of loss) because they got us excited by dangling a carrot right above us, then, lifted it higher so we couldn't reach it. They do recognize that they've been unclear with their message on what their target audience is. However, what I don't understand is why they are still making multiple versions of the Epic with their new strategy. Why make the Epic-S if you already have the Epic that does everything it does and more? They are still marketing to a group of people who cannot afford the original Epic, so their position to me is still kind of questionable.

Is it because of the F3?

However, I've always felt that Panasonic catered to the indy work, given the DVX and HVX, so to me, they seem to be pretty clear about following their strategy all along. Sony, well, you are probably right with them.

 

[Kit Hannah]

However, I've always felt that Panasonic catered to the indy work, given the DVX and HVX, so to me, they seem to be pretty clear about following their strategy all along. Sony, well, you are probably right with them.

Panasonic is large enough to cater to everyone. As is Sony. This includes super high end film and broadcast cameras, as well as sub $100 cheap consumer cameras. RED is focused on one area - High resolution film replacing digital motion cameras for whoever can afford them.

 

[S. Matthews]

Epic is on set on a major production, not all features are enabled, but so far from what I have read from the DP is that they have preformed flawlessly without any hiccups, the reason red is taking so long is they plan to release a complete camera this time, though there will be updates it will not be like the Red one in the early days.

once again this is pure speculation no one knows how large the roll out of the new camera's is going to be, for all we know there are already hundred of bodies and components put together waiting for those last components and firmware. I think we all need to stop speculating on this and just go out and shoot, you like red fine, you like panny fine, you like sony .... you like sony? Jk, or you like and use what is best for the job, great. small big, new old, outdated, new age, over hyped, under hyped, who cares really just find what works best for you and go out there and do the best you can, and for the love of good don't sweat the small stuff.... like fighting marketing wars for companies you have no allegiance to.

have a good one and go out and party on new years let someone else shoot it.

 

[Rick Burnett]

Panasonic is large enough to cater to everyone. As is Sony. This includes super high end film and broadcast cameras, as well as sub $100 cheap consumer cameras. RED is focused on one area - High resolution film replacing digital motion cameras for whoever can afford them.

True, but they are still focusing on two separate groups of people. Those than can afford the original Epic, and those that can afford the Epic-S.

 

[Kit Hannah]

True, but they are still focusing on two separate groups of people. Those than can afford the original Epic, and those that can afford the Epic-S.

Correct, I was just making the point that RED has a much more focused niche audience. Their cameras are not for everyone nor are they trying to be. Some will use them for that, but that isn't their goal.

 

[snowleopard]

Well, according to Wikipedia, Epic and Scarlet were announced at NAB 2008, that's why I said nearly three years.

I think it's a bit much to compare Panasonic's announcements and leaks of the then forthcoming AF100 to what Red has hyped, don't you?

I also think it's illogical to compare Scarlet to anything actually out, or with a hard release date, because it may still be months before it's a camera that is not only out, but something you can order from the store and have FedEx ship to you within a week. When that happens, then we can start comparing it. Right now it's still pretty much just another camera in development, most comparable to cameras from the others in development that they don't release info on. This is the big mistake I think everyone made. They looked at Red's hype of specs and stats, and compared that to what they currently have available, and salivated, not taking into consideration that the revolutionary design/cost was actually non-existent, and needed to be compared to what was in the future. Sometimes a few years in the future. And a few years in this business is a lifetime.

 

[Kit Hannah]

I think it's a bit much to compare Panasonic's announcements and leaks of the then forthcoming AF100 to what Red has hyped, don't you?

Not really. My point is that they both hype things. They both promise things. Sony does it too.

Check this out...
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/201011/10-157E/index.html

Sony even made a video and have proposed specs before they have a working anything. I believe Sony will deliver, but I also believe RED will deliver. There are working Scarlets and Epic videos as we speak. major productions have signed on to use them. I think RED will deliver too.

People talk abot RED a lot more though because of their decision to release cameras way beyond today's current standards, in effect futureproofing things. The RED One will still be a wonderful camera and not obsolete for a long time. But just because people don't talk about the AF100 nearly as much as they do the RED cameras (in comparison), doesn't mean that RED is doing something wrong necessarily. "People" are hyping the camera. There is lots of interest. I was at NAB in 2008. The RED booth had a line 600 people long. But there were still lots of people at the Sony and Panasonic booths. It seems like there is a general conception that more people are interested in the RED hype, so it gets talked about more and hyped even further. It basically has snowballed and perpetuated itself.

 

[snowleopard]

Yes, they promise things. But you honestly believe that Sony and Panasonic's hype has matched what Red has stated?

Actually, most of the time I talk about Red it's that either their Red One camera footage looks great. Or that they have made and broken so many promises, and had so many delays, and so many people - especially on their forums - rabidly suck it all up anyway.

(The link you gave is dead).

 

[Kit Hannah]

Yes, they promise things. But you honestly believe that Sony and Panasonic's hype has matched what Red has stated?

Actually, most of the time I talk about Red it's that either their Red One camera footage looks great. Or that they have made and broken so many promises, and had so many delays, and so many people - especially on their forums - rabidly suck it all up anyway.

(The link you gave is dead).

I copied the link over again and seems to be working.

As far as hype goes:
hype

verb, hyped, hyp·ing, noun Informal .
–verb (used with object) 1. to stimulate, excite, or agitate (usually fol. by up ): She was hyped up at the thought of owning her own car.

2. to create interest in by flamboyant or dramatic methods; promote or publicize showily: a promoter who knows how to hype a prizefight.

3. to intensify (advertising, promotion, or publicity) by ingenious or questionable claims, methods, etc. (usually fol. by up ).

4. to trick; gull.


–noun 5. exaggerated publicity; hoopla.

6. an ingenious or questionable claim, method, etc., used in advertising, promotion, or publicity to intensify the effect.

7. a swindle, deception, or trick.


RED One was so called "hyped", but I beileve that they delivered on their promises (other than dates) and changed things to benefit the end user. I think they'll deliver with Epic and Scarlet.

And no, I don't think Sony and Panasonic has reached the hype level of the RED simply because RED has much more appealing cameras for the money.

I guess I am not clear on what the problem is. Either people can choose to listen to their "hype", or people can choose to ignore it, rather than play into it. I think they have created a product that is much more buzzworthy than most, that's why it is receiving the attention. I think the company responds to things in discussions and has a much more open feel in letting the consumer help dictate where their product goes. Frankly I think it's amazing that they even allow that to happen. Some take advantage, some put it down loudly and without shame, but people are talking about it, yeah, and I'm sure RED is very happy about that. I think people are creating the most hype, not the company itself. But there are different types of personalities in this video game. Some, very creative and open to things changing and adapting. Some are linear, where they think that once someone says something that it has to be that way and cannot deviate no matter what. RED is not a linear thinking company, they think outside the box and unfortunately that means that things happen, Jim has said this time and time again.

But why do people get so mad and frustrated about it? Everybody wants to have the latest and greatest and show that they are the best at what they do, which is fine. But people obviously know how they (RED) are, so why are they still getting upset when something happens? Wait until the product is released. People being upset about everything will change nothing. People speculate, assume, praise and put down their product, but most of it is not helping anything other than them saving money on marketing. I'm sure it will be here very soon and until then use what you've got or look into something else that is real, like I keep saying.