Epic and Scarlet release in 2010
- Thread starter Emanuel
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12K without accessories, definitely out of my budget. Sounds like the Red One will be made obsolete. Or rather, they'll stop selling them and perhaps keep giving sensor upgrades to existing customers. (My guess, not based in any kind of hard fact. Just spitballing)
Hardly. Real men don't pay retail.
Barry_Green
Moderator
It's now $5750, last we knew, until they announce whatever new announcement of when they're going to announce when they plan on announcing something new. Which will, of course, be subject to change, so you can't take anything in their announcements at face value because they disclaim any need to stick by it.
So, keep ignoring it until it shows up in red.com/store. Once it's there, that's the time to start paying attention.
Hahahaha. You're about three years behind in your info. No one knows what the price is, but it's definitely HIGHER.
EDIT: Barry posted. So the last number thrown around was $5750, almost twice as much as the 3K for 3K number from years ago. And this too needs accessories.
Wow, and I thought Scarlet 3K's price had skyrocketed! Since being announced Scarlet's price has increased nearly 92%, and since going modular it has increased 53%. However, since November 2009's announcement, it has gone up only (and it pains me greatly to use that word) 21%. On the other hand, since November 2009 Scarlet S35 -- now rebadged Epic-S (aka Epic Light) -- has increased about 70%, assuming that the $12,000 figure is correct. Another way to look at it: it's increased by almost the price (the most recently quoted one, anyway) of the Scarlet 3K fixed kit.
mjmcneese
Veteran
Yeah...HDRx has been added to all new RED cameras.
The only way I'd buy an EPIC-S is if it comes with a new client that will gross me at least $50k/year. And I get to pick the client.
strangways
Well-known member
You've got it backwards... first you find yourself a client that will gross you at least $50k/year, and then you get the camera that you need to do the job.
In the initial announcement of the name change, Jim Jannard said "The features have changed as has the price." So it's going to be a more capable camera.
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
I don't think the price is unreasonable if the 18 stops in HDR work as well as the sample footage I have paid with HANDS DOWN. It's just out of my league at the moment.
Danielvilliers
Veteran
It is not unreasonable at all compared to market prices, but the way it was marketed etc which is really bad. If more or less from the start it was said that it would be in that price range many would not have complained or be disappointed because they would have known from the start if they can afford it or not. But many have waited about 3 years for this camera because it was in there budget and then just by magic the price is increase by 80% and out of there budget. No matter what type of functionality it will have more, they are just priced out of it.
The only good thing now for them is that at least there will be alternatives in this market segment, from the Panasonic af-100, Sony nxcam and Sony F3. The irony is that it will be the Sony and Panasonic of this world who will cater for the indy crowd and red be the elitist one!!! How time has changed from red the champ of the indies, who would bring the cinema quality to the indies.
Kit Hannah
Veteran
Maybe what you think is bad is actually really good for them? If they had marketed it as twice the price originally, do you think that there would be nearly the buzz about it? At $2-3k almost everyone can find a way to buy it and gets everyone talking in a positive light because they believe it will be theirs "shortly". Now that it's a reality and is going to cost a lot more, some of the fans said "ok, whatever" I will still buy it, some won't upgrade, some didn't care about the price to begin with and wants it for the capabilities, some will go with other brands. Personally, I think it was genius marketing on thier part. Everything else has changed, why not the price? AF100 will be a great camera. But it still doesn't have the capabilities RED will have, Depends on what you're doing.
snowleopard
Well-known member
Well, they are working in shifting sands, and with the AF100 out, and F3 soon out, it stands to reason they would try to tailor their releases to market gaps. That's understandable. The problem still remains when. As Barry noted a page or two ago, until you actually log on to the Red store and can order a camera, it's still a shell game to compare products that are actually out, to products that will someday be out.
No, the AF100 won't do what a Red One or Epic will do. But then again, the Red One and Epic are much more expensive. And as of right now we can only compare the AF100 to those because they are the only cameras that Red has out. Even then, if you order an Epic I don't know how long you're going to have to wait for your delivery. Comparing Scaarlet to the AF100 isn't just. It's almost akin to comparing it to fictitious AF200, if Panasonic had such a camera in development and were releasing specs on it they way Red has with it's gear. Same goes for Sony, Canon, etc. gear in development.
I think the problem with getting people to talk about Scarlet at 3k for $3k, is that while it created buzz, that evolved into disappointment, then even animosity, when delay after delay after price hike after price hike kept piling up. The buzz they created has arguably started to turn into negative buzz about the company's integrity. They still can reverse that though if they can get the camera to market soon, deliver soon and it's hassle free.
No, the AF100 won't do what a Red One or Epic will do. But then again, the Red One and Epic are much more expensive. And as of right now we can only compare the AF100 to those because they are the only cameras that Red has out. Even then, if you order an Epic I don't know how long you're going to have to wait for your delivery. Comparing Scaarlet to the AF100 isn't just. It's almost akin to comparing it to fictitious AF200, if Panasonic had such a camera in development and were releasing specs on it they way Red has with it's gear. Same goes for Sony, Canon, etc. gear in development.
I think the problem with getting people to talk about Scarlet at 3k for $3k, is that while it created buzz, that evolved into disappointment, then even animosity, when delay after delay after price hike after price hike kept piling up. The buzz they created has arguably started to turn into negative buzz about the company's integrity. They still can reverse that though if they can get the camera to market soon, deliver soon and it's hassle free.
lawriejaffa
Veteran
Yep the marketing of course was also about destroying confidence in the buyers of other cameras by suggesting they were out of touch, obsolete etc. Basically dangling a carrot for god knows how long. I personally do actually 'generally' want a camera from RED - which despite not having used one before - so that feeling says something about there marketing efficiency lol. However, there is animosity too, it has smacked of arrogance, and while I look forward to there release - I will be more cautious about there products as a result of what i feel has been a faily infantile process.
In the meantime I am carefully scrutinising options offered by Canon, and especially Panny's AF100.
In the meantime I am carefully scrutinising options offered by Canon, and especially Panny's AF100.
Danielvilliers
Veteran
I am no expert in marketing but here we are talking about a very small niche market, and piss...ing perhaps more than half, if not more of your market might not be such a good idea. It is not as if Lady Gaga putting some meat on her as a publicity stunt. To use their forum as a good marketing barometer is not sound at all because most who do not agree with them have been banned. For sure they have a near religious following, but will they expand on that. They were in no man's world with no competition before the arrival of the Af-100, Sony F3 and the Sony Nxcam. People have choices now, it was easy for red to discredit the Dslr with poor resolution, aliasing, moire etc. Will it be the same now? If the Sony Nxcam comes with the announced spec of 3.5K, s35 sensor, very good low light and dynamic range with 10 bit 422 hdsdi output below $ 6000, don' t you think that it will good enough for most. It won' t be as easy to ridicule now.
Most if not all professionals or production company will buy in at least an S35 camera in the next two years, because it will become a must to have at least one large sensor camera look besides there traditional ones. We are talking everyone who has an ex1- ex3 type of camera for event, weddings, corporate, advertising world. When Sony or Panasonic will have acquired those market they could toy with red at will. Already we see that the sensor of the F3 will be in the Nxcam, guest what will happen in the next 2-3 years. While Red prices just go up, normal market mechanic (shirking market higher prices to recoup r&d etc), the F3 class of camera could cost well below $ 10000.
I will just take the example of a sister market which resembles a lot the video market. When Canon brought out the full frame 1ds in 2003 it nearly killed the high end medium format camera. After a lot of restructuring and bankruptcy, the medium format market is just the shadow of what it was, with many venerable companies that have died. Just a handful have survived like hasselblad. The reason was that the 1ds was good enough in those days for pros who could not afford the tens of thousand of dollar backs. If tomorrow you had to buy some actions would it be hasselblad or nikon/canon ?
Kit Hannah
Veteran
While I don't exactly understand everything you are saying and points you're trying to make, I will say that if Sony brought out something with similar specs as the Scarlet, lets say, for around $3k-$4k, there would be crzy buzz about it. Hell, Panasonic brought out the AF100 and people have been going crazy buzzing like bees over it. Time will tell on everything, and while I don't agree with RED's marketing strategy, I do say that they would never have had 10% of the interest if the price wasn't so cheap. But the funny thing is, this is the same thing that was happening with the RED One. They cried wolf for awhile tons of buzz, thn they actually delivered with flying colors. So now that people actually know that they can produce excellent capable cameras, I think people have a lot of confience in them and even at $5-6k for their camera is a bargain. Believe me, I am not a RED fanboy but I definitely respect and appreciate what they are doing. Word of mouth, be it good or bad, has saved them A LOT of money in advertising costs and RED is now a household name in the industry. Maybe if the Scarlet / Epic products are a huge hit (which obviously they will be), they will be able to hire more people for faster product deveopment and implementation to start delivering on their promises sooner. But everybody breaks promises though. Panasonic promised a HPX-3100 out by October, didn't see it. If I recall correctly, Sony's EX1 was delayed originally. Maybe they're not as vocal about it but delays happen. And RED has not been secretive about that from the beginning. People seem to get so angry but for RED, most buzz is good buzz at this point. I don't think the negative buzz will have much of an impact at this point as RED seems to have the goods and once it's actually out, many will want it.
Kit Hannah
Veteran
Great assessment, and glad you're considering "a carrot" that you can go buy at the store right now, not waiting for the promised super carrot of the future. When it gets here, then consider it
I would someday like to get a RED camera too, but in the mean time I'm not gonna sit and cry over it. Use the tools you have available and when something actually comes along, consider it then. Right now, get your Canon or AF100 and go make some freakin money!Paul V Doherty
Active member
*yawn*
wake me when Joe Schmuck has an Epic or Scarlet in his hands
zzzzzzzzzzzz
wake me when Joe Schmuck has an Epic or Scarlet in his hands
zzzzzzzzzzzz
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