Michael Olsen
Veteran
Interesting...I don't shoot much chrome...I'll have to give that a chance next time a car show is in town! :beer:
Epic and Scarlet release in 2010
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Interesting...I don't shoot much chrome...I'll have to give that a chance next time a car show is in town! :beer:
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
You can actually shoot CF still as well, although it will limit your REDCODE and FPS options. There is an adapter they will have that will go into the SSD module that will be able to use CF as said by Jarred. That would be the bare bones to me.
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
I only happened to find this out when I downloaded a bunch of raw footage as I was studying the Red One and REDCINE and looking at the footage 1:1 as I wanted to see how it looked 1:1 compared to some other footage I had. I will say though, it is so minimal, I'd never bee concerned about it myself, but it was there. And of course, compared to 720p mode on my 7D, hahahahahahahaah, night and day
Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
Otis,
It is a pleasure to know there is such quality of market analysis in these boards. Just to read it, won't there be any need to wonder why your camera project can only succeed? ;-)
It is exactly what I think about the Oakley's guy. He will have no choice in any way other than as to quickly figure out the big guys are close to steal his cake, read, his timing. I just hope he may not become a geek lemming as far as Epic dream(s) concerns.
Cheers,
E.
Otis,
It is exactly what I think about the Oakley's guy. He will have no choice in any way other than as to quickly figure out the big guys are close to steal his cake, read, his timing. I just hope he may not become a geek lemming as far as Epic dream(s) concerns.
Cheers,
E.
Red has been stealing cake from the big guys for three years now with Red 1, and they are still playing catch up to that camera. People shooting strictly for HDTV production might prefer the Sony for easy and familiar work flow. For production truly intended for theatrical distribution, or for ancillary production markets where higher than HD resolution presentation is already common, Epic and Scarlet will be the first choice.
Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
I share your wishes. The point is what is also written above though:
It is a matter of timing now, more than ever before. They are in the run this time. These cameras are a threat for Scarlet -- their price target, not exactly RED ONE (especially when RED has been too focused with Epic in mind and Epic/Scarlet program has been delayed announcement after announcement), no matter of what our wishes are made
Otis Grapsas
Carbonite Member
But that would go againt my argument
Most people do not need high quality imaging, and Sony are probably laughing at our attempts to improve imaging quality because they are dominating the market with 35mbit mpeg2.But that would go againt my argument
That is true to a point. But even Youtube has a 4k video mode now. There are advantages to oversampled acquisition even when reduced to 720p Vimeo levels for display. A 2k digital cinema presentation has a very different look if it is originated from scanned film or 4k digital than it does from an upscaled 1080p. This is especially true for 2.40:1 cinemascope format.
If you are shooting for a stock footage library, acquisition at the highest possible resolution and quality increases value and the ability to repurpose footage for many applications.
Otis Grapsas
Carbonite Member
But displays are usually 1920 pixels wide. 4K for the web is a waste of datarate, resolution is NOT the problem of web video
The same datarate in 1080p would produce a better image.2K scans cannot get 1920x1080 pixels in academy format, that's a good reason to scan in 4K.
A 4K spirit has 6.08um pixels in 35mm mode, so it can actually get 3450 pixels horizontally on academy 35. In 2K 1,85:1 that would be 1726x932 pixels. In some calculation I have seen a figure closer to 1800 but the difference is small. In a 16:9 crop you have 1656x932 pixels. That's the same number of pixels with a 1440x1080 HDCAM camera, a little soft by modern standards. 4K scans are 4x slower though which probably makes 2K very popular.
Btw, I meant pixel quality, color precision, motion quality, etc not resolution. Consumers will always want more resolution.
For web distribution, Red may be overkill but clearly the Red One and the upcoming Epic are made for the big screen. Go to any major film festival and you will see right away where Red has left its mark on the industry. People forget how difficult a task this is to compete against the major camera manufactures.
Despite the setbacks, I don't think Jim needs advice on how to run his business. He is a billonaire for a reason and not many people can make that claim.
I'm not a fanboy by any means but all we can do is wait or buy something else.
Despite the setbacks, I don't think Jim needs advice on how to run his business. He is a billonaire for a reason and not many people can make that claim.
I'm not a fanboy by any means but all we can do is wait or buy something else.
Michael Olsen
Veteran
Just downscale from 4K to 1080p properly and the footage will look fantastic. Better than most cams that do acquisition at 1080p.
Edit: And, I don't know how good it will look since there hasn't been any footage released, but the cameras will also be capable outputting up to 1080p/30 RGB.
Edit: And, I don't know how good it will look since there hasn't been any footage released, but the cameras will also be capable outputting up to 1080p/30 RGB.
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So yeah, somewhere between 12 and 16k i can shoot 5k (and 3k, 2k...), redcode raw, HDRx....Really, IF, it indeed does come before April why would I get a 1080p Sony ay 16k body only?
Michael Olsen
Veteran
1. Brand Loyalty - You like Sony. You've always used Sony, you use them now, you like their customer support, and you like the images they create.
2. FUD - You have heard a lot of things about RED - some good, and some bad. What about that codec? REDCODE? Wavelet compression? Isn't that...hard? And I heard that there isn't an established workflow? What's all that about? I'd rather just stick with XDCAm... (In truth, working with RED footage for smaller production is very simple and straightforward if you have about 30-45 minutes to sit down and learn the basics).
3. Brand Hate - You hate RED. They are big-mouthed cynics that say mean things and hurt your feelings. You'll never ever by a camera from them, no matter what.
4. Physical Impossibility - RED doesn't deliver on time. It's not like it hasn't happened before.
I think N.4 might be the only issue for me. Thankfully the first 3 points have nothing to to with me!
Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
LOL That said, it does seem soBut that would go againt my argument
But try to see the things in a positive side, as matter of fact, in a realistic way. Comparing with Jim Jannard, how many people do you have in your payroll of your camera project? ;-)
Comparing apples to oranges though, how many S35 cameras Sony will sell or 4/3" sales Panasonic will get for each Epic unit sold? :huh:
I've always said and will post it again that Epic is nothing compared to what Scarlet might be...
Otis Grapsas
Carbonite Member
LOL That said, it does seem so
But try to see the things in a positive side, as matter of fact, in a realistic way. Comparing with Jim Jannard, how many people do you have in your payroll of your camera project? ;-)
Comparing apples to oranges though, how many S35 cameras Sony will sell or 4/3" sales Panasonic will get for each Epic unit sold? :huh:
I've always said and will post it again that Epic is nothing compared to what Scarlet might be...
On my payroll? That's a ZERO. Drama is like an independent film in many ways
And like any independent film, even if it fails we will all have gained a lot in the process. The entire investment would simply buy a single high end 2/3" Sony, so getting 4 2/3" CCD cameras out of the effort would still be worth it. Total control on the image and 12bit uncompressed? It's not something we can buy off the shelf.I don't think this Sony will be very hot. 35mm has its limitations and the EX1 will work better in many scenarios. The EX1 will still be the best selling item.
I believe Scarlet will end up being a Red One that is $17,800 equiped vs the original Red One which was body only at that price.
For me... a reason might be worldwide distribution and service centers.... being in Europe and shooting in far off places makes me a little nervous about RED (and other smaller companies).
What if a bag got stolen/lost with my RED batteries? Would I be able to get some from the nearest city? Would I be able to fly some out "next day" if I were in, say, Iceland?
Michael Olsen
Veteran
RED is (supposedly) vastly expanding it's own internal service capabilities.
Fortunately, the relatively low price of the RED also means that it has been purchased for use/rental in a variety of countries where other digicine cams might never ever be used due to cost.
And I believe RED is trying to open up as much as possible to third-party accessories. If you could get your hands on some AB batteries, for example, you could just use D-tap.
Fortunately, the relatively low price of the RED also means that it has been purchased for use/rental in a variety of countries where other digicine cams might never ever be used due to cost.
And I believe RED is trying to open up as much as possible to third-party accessories. If you could get your hands on some AB batteries, for example, you could just use D-tap.
Otis Grapsas
Carbonite Member
Actually, after discussing with many filmmakers, I have spend some time thinking about these things.
If we do believe the courier services, they can get you a part early morning if they receive it by afternoon. Any manufacturer should be able to provide that.
I selected open hardware for my project, but that doesn't mean you will actually be able to the right type of SSD or a high current gold mount battery in any city. It will probably not be in stock. The manufacturer's stock is your only option.
Then, there is the actual camera.
Some cameras have things that break easily, consumer video audio and computer interface connectors. A broken HDMI or USB connector can break your shooting and/or your workflow. I had GigE connectors break on expensive professional gear more than once and the full device was a wreck because these were mounted on pcb. Cameras should only use industrial quality locking connectors. Ideally, no connector should be mounted directly on a pcb, because connector to pcb links are very weak and in case it needs to be replaced/soldered in the field. All cables etc should be specified with complete pinouts and connector part numbers.
I believe there is no excuse for a camera that fails in the field. It should handle well an attack with a hammer, pulling cables etc.
Ideally, the camera should have no embedded lenses, monitors, touchscreen panels and cables. These things break easily. Having these independent makes sense. A spare does not cost that much vs a full backup camera. If you break an 8" monitor in the field, a mic preamp or a touchscreen, you should be able to replace it immediately. In the long term this also minimises service cost and allows easy upgrades.
Ideally, the camera should be easy to open and clean, in case it falls in water and mud. It should be based on a simple assembly. In case of emergency you should be able to easily check the amount of damage and make sure the camera will not be in a compromised state that could lead to further damage. When an accident happens on a black box camera you have to decide if a few hours of shooting are worth puting the camera in danger. A tough decision.
Little details that can save the day.
Camera manufacturers should look at what the army use in the field.
Otis, i think with your smaller production... it would be possible to maintain that level of service.... but for RED, i'm not sure.... the EVF has been on back order for how long? If an EVF broke, it is very unlikely that one could be sent out next day.
Hopefully they are now really ramping up the production of these units so that stock is always ready.
Hopefully they are now really ramping up the production of these units so that stock is always ready.
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