Editing DVCPRO

G

GregJacobson

Member
As I understand it Apple and Avid both support this format already.

Barry states that the bandwidth is about 4 times as much as HDV.  

So what is it like to edit this format?  I would imagine you would need an extremeley fast machine, or does  Apple and/or Avid handle the footage in a way that allows for extremely efficient editing?
 
Re: Editing DVCPRO

probably we will get a nice handle with a dual G5, lot of ram and the tiger that will let the 64 bits run wild, maybe apple is waiting for this... unless i´m wrong and i will like to be corrected.
 
Re: Editing DVCPRO

Editing should be far more responsive with DVCPRO-HD than it would be with native HDV. HDV uses 1/4 the data space, yes... but to locate any individual frame, the processor will have to uncompress as many as 15 frames, just to reconstruct one. Whereas with DVCPRO-HD, each frame is stored discretely -- so to access one frame, it can uncompress just that one frame.

100 megabits isn't really much of a drain for modern hard disks, it's only about 15 megabytes per second, and most hard drives can easily handle that nowadays, can't they?
 
Re: Editing DVCPRO

If I was to buy this new Camera, if it's all true... Do I have to buy a new deck to play back my tapes? Or would my MiniDV cam play the tapes back?

Before I get all excited, want to know what the cost is upgrading all of my equipment.
Thanks,
 
Re: Editing DVCPRO

A Deck would not be necessary, because DVCPro100 decks cost 20,000 bucks. The camera don't record in DVCPRO tapes, but only in MiniDV or in P2 Cards. At least that's what I get from the whole thing. To capture DVCPRO stuff, only plug the card to your computer and copy the files.

Since FCP can handle Native DVCPRO editing, it can edit the compressed signal and therefore, only need 4x the bandwith DV uses. No need for drive arrays or other complicated stuff, although I believe only a G5 could handle smooth DVCPRO playbacks. If you were to edit HDCAM, you would have to uncompress the footage for editing and it would be a lot more difficult. There is a cool article about editing DVCPRO in www.kenstone.net
 
Re: Editing DVCPRO

How much footage can you actually fit in a mini-dv tape, if the rate is 100mbps? I don't think there is enough space in one of those to record much footage!

I'm also wodering about the speed information can be wrriten into them. Will they be able to handle the bandwidth??
 
Re: Editing DVCPRO

From what it seems, only the 25mbps version of dvcpro will be written to tape.

The 50 mbps version will/can be written to card - easy to offload into your computer.

More info to trickle in...
 
Re: Editing DVCPRO

[quote author=Zig_Zigman link=board=HDV;num=1108329583;start=0#6 date=02/14/05 at 13:41:36]From what it seems, only the 25mbps version of dvcpro will be written to tape.

The 50 mbps version will/can be written to card - easy to offload into your computer.

More info to trickle in...

[/quote]
Is the 25mbit version of DVCPRO 4:2:2 or 4:1:1? I think it is is 4:1:1 but I'd like some clarification.

Thanks
 
Re: Editing DVCPRO

Do how do we get DVCPROHD then? The P2 cards?
Won't price be killed then, to like $20,000?
 
Re: Editing DVCPRO

DVCPRO/25 is 4:1:1, just like regular DV. In fact, IINM, it *is* regular DV.

I don't know whether we'll get DVCPRO/50 or DVCPRO/HD on tape... I think Jan said that it's not possible to write 50/100 data on the DV tape, so maybe Zig's right -- maybe HD (or DVCPRO/50) will be only written to P2 card (or streamed out the firewire to hard disk?) Or maybe it will be able to be written to tape... we'll find out eight weeks from now.
 
Re: Editing DVCPRO

Barry,
Can you comment on your opinion of DVCPRO downrezzed to SD? COuld it be the same as HDV downrezzed? Not a big advantage or is there a piece of this complicated puzzle that I don't see?

I am sure it is great to start with awesome res footage but in reality if you are only delivering SD DVDs to clients and already are vested in SD software and Decks the move to HD now would be overkill I'd think. Especially for the money involved in getting a system up and running.

(No chroma keying involved in my work currently so 4:2:2 while being nice is not a necessity)
 
Re: Editing DVCPRO

The problem with answering your question is that there's no direct comparison possible yet. What I mean is, you can't compare a VariCam on DVD against a DVX on DVD, because it's not just a recording format/resolution difference, you're also factoring in the lens, the bigger chips, the better DSP, etc...

... so until a 1/3" DVCPRO-HD camera, with a lens comparable to what we've been using, is available, then no direct comparison is possible.

With that said -- if someone made me guess, I'd guess that if you shoot in HD mode, you're not likely to see improvements in SD DVD from the new camera, all other things being equal (and the only way that all other things could be equal is if you were to compare a DVCPRO50-mode DVD against a DVCPRO-HD DVD, because then you're talking about using the same lens, same chips, same color sampling, etc...)

As compared to a DVX, I'm guessing that we'll see the POTENTIAL for better-looking DVDs if you shoot in the DVCPRO50 mode. That way you get native 720x480 sampling, and 4:2:2 color (which theoretically should convert to DVD better than DV mode's 4:1:1).

Now, where we leave the realm of being able to guess is: we don't know what else the cam can do. Does it have a fancy 14-bit DSP with extended dynamic range capability and all sorts of goodies like that? We don't know. If we base it on the precedent set by the FX1, I'd guess we won't see better DVD production, but there's no good reason to limit ourselves to that comparison until we find out what else the camera is capable of... and, by extension, all that will fall by the wayside once we actually put the thing to work and find out, side-by-side, what's what.

And we will do that, you can bet on it.
 
Re: Editing DVCPRO

I'm going to go way out on a limb and argue that the best way for this new camera to record for an SD DVD output is to use DVCPRO50.  At 720p, DVCPRO50 has half the compression of DVCPROHD (3.3:1 vs. 6.7:1).

Thus, recording DVCPROHD and then downconverting for an SD DVD means that you would compress the video twice as much as DVCPRO50 when you record it and then downconvert to SD, inevitably losing some more quality.  As long as you know you don't have any HD distribution possibilities, DVCPRO50 seems like the clear choice.
 
Re: Editing DVCPRO

On paper, I would definitely agree. I know it seems silly to be amped about a less-than-HD format on an HD camera, but I do think the DVCPRO50 was the best "surprise" on this camera, and I'm quite looking forward to it.

I agree with your reasoning as well: shooting higher-resolution with higher compression, just to turn around and down-rez it, sure doesn't seem like it'd produce a superior result to just shooting the "proper" (DVD-compliant) resolution in the first place, with half as much compression applied.

It reemains to be seen how real-world tests turn out, but it sounds reasonable!
 
Re: Editing DVCPRO

[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=HDV;num=1108329583;start=0#14 date=02/15/05 at 00:01:23]It reemains to be seen how real-world tests turn out, but it sounds reasonable![/quote]

I totally agree; there should be a disclaimer around this whole HDX100 board that just about all of it is theoretical until we actually get the camera in our hot little hands.
 
jnolla said:
Do how do we get DVCPROHD then? The P2 cards?
Won't price be killed then, to like $20,000?
Click to expand...

You record HD to P2 cards, then offload them to a P2 store, or to your laptop, or edit directly from the cards. I find it very simple with my camera. You also use the P2 cards some 100,000 times over before they wear out, to two 4 gig cards and one store (for up to 60 gigs in the field) and you can shoot almost continuously. I simply copy the Store (or P2's directly from the camera) into an Avid file, and start editing. Avid will do DVCPROHD natively, including the 720p variable rate feature, but they forgot to put it in their documentataion. Yet it works perfectly, and easily. With Avid, you will use either 1080i/60, 720p/24, or 720pn/24 (the variable frame rate) natively along with HDV and put them in the same timeline if the frame rates match. FCP can almost do all of the same, but even then, the extra hassle won't cause you any headaches.

The 100mbs rate is not a problem. Your normal drives will handle it, since it is only 100/8, or 12.5 mB/sec. This is not fast. If you choose to capture uncompressed 1080p/60p however, you will have a problem with speed, but none at all with DVCPROHD. So don't worry, your expenses needn't go through the roof. The camera, along with a couple of cards and either a laptop or P2 store, and you won't have any other expenses regarding your
computer set up.

Get the camera. It's great as far as getting great footage for reasonable cost, low hassle, and with a great 4:2:2 that can't be beat, and it won't break your budget.

However, on the negative side, comparing it to my Sony Z1U, it is not nearly as shooter friendly for a number of reasons: the rather poor LCD, the LCD mounting and tiny viewfinder image to start. Then their form of peaking does little, so even though they made a great image enlargement function for the middle of the image to help with focusing, in bright light (outdoors in southern Califonia), focusing is a real problem. Also, it could really use several more user buttons...you will see what I mean. Then the idiot who designed the control buttons for working with the thumbnail and playback buttons, etc, needs to have his head examined. Again, you will see what I mean.

NEVERTHELESS...you will never tear my HVX from my cold dead fingers. In the balance, it is that good! (And by the way, do you want to buy I good Z1U?)
 
But lets not forget that dvcpro50 is an older format than dvcprohd (I presume). Which means that dvcprohd was tought in a more optimal way (even for integration on NLE). Maybe the downrezzed results could compete in the sd realm if you went with downrezing to SD Uncompressed PAL or NTSC...
 
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