FS5: Easiest way to get 1.5 - 2 stops over for shooting S-log?

[Ivor C]

Usually my clients are happy with me shooting Rec709 on my FS5. But I have a job coming up where they want everything shot in S-log 2. I know Alister Chapman recommends shooting 1-2 stops over in S-log.

What I would like to know is how to effectively do that using only the FS5 and it's default/onboard monitor.

Firstly can anyone recommend what they think is the correct over-exposure in S-log 2, ie +1, +1.5 or +2 stops. My shooting scenario is mostly indoor lit interviews with occasional B-roll shot outside on (hopefully) an overcast or even sunny day.

Whatever the recommended over-exposure, I assume I start the process by setting the S-log 2 to the appropriate WB/colour temperature setting.

Then I assume I offset the AE between +1/+2 stops.

But after that how do I effectively monitor I've got the correct (over) exposure on faces and outdoor shots (eg clouds)? In other words what is the most effective way of using zebras in these scenarios? I'm more of a 'creative' than an 'engineer', so please spell it out for me if possible

Thanks.

 

[Doug Jensen]

The simplest way is to set Zebra 2 for 75% and allow just a touch of zebras on bright reflected whites. If there is nothing white in the shot, such as when shooting an interview, have the subject hold up a white card while you set the exposure. It's just as easy as that, and I do it that way every day. Do not use AE or you will never get consistently good results.

https://vimeo.com/ondemand/fs5

 

[Grug]

Use a light meter?

 

[JPNola]

The simplest way is to set Zebra 2 for 75% and allow just a touch of zebras on bright reflected whites. If there is nothing white in the shot, such as when shooting an interview, have the subject hold up a white card while you set the exposure. It's just as easy as that, and I do it that way every day. Do not use AE or you will never get consistently good results.

https://vimeo.com/ondemand/fs5

Wait a minute, traditionally we place white at 100%. You are instructing to instead place white at 75% in order to overexpose by 2 stops. How is exposing white by 25% less increasing exposure by 2 stops?

You said "Zebra 2" but it could just as well be Zebra 1 since it is possible to make Zebra 1 and Zebra 2 anything you want. "Zebra 2" has absolutely no difference from "Zebra 1". Or am I wrong about that?

 

[Tom Roper]

White for SLog2 is at 59% IRE, and 100% IRE accommodates highlights brighter than a white card.

If there is such a rule as shooting 1-2 stops over, it has to recognize that the scene is not using all 14 stops of DR or highlights will be compressed. If the scene brightness is not filling the waveform monitor, you could get a better image by using STD gamma or hypergamma that will apportion your bit budget across the number of shades your scene actually has, rather than spending them on shades it does not.

 

[Nirv]

White for SLog2 is at 59% IRE, and 100% IRE accommodates highlights brighter than a white card.

If there is such a rule as shooting 1-2 stops over, it has to recognize that the scene is not using all 14 stops of DR or highlights will be compressed. If the scene brightness is not filling the waveform monitor, you could get a better image by using STD gamma or hypergamma that will apportion your bit budget across the number of shades your scene actually has, rather than spending them on shades it does not.

Did you not read the OP's question? The client requested SLog2 so STD or HG are irrelevant.

 

[Liam Hall]

The figure for Slog2 white reflectance is 59%. And that is for 90% white reflectance, NOT PEAK WHITE. If you expose for 90% reflectance you will still have headroom.

Shooting indoors you need to keep a careful eye on your mid-tones and your shadows particularly as you are using an 8bit camera. Mid-gray should be 32% for normal exposure.

It is a good idea to push the exposure, particularly when shooting inside, but be aware you will lose one stop of headroom for each stop of overexposure. You will of course gain a stop in the shadows.

For +1 stop 90%, white should be 71% and mid grey 43%/ For +2 stops it should be 83% for white and 55% for grey.

My advice, buy a decent white/grey card you can use to target your exposure with zebras and beg, borrow or steal a decent monitor that you can load corrective mluts on to monitor if you're not happy looking at a washed out image.

 

[Ivor C]

Thanks for the advice. Let me check if I've understood everything correctly. I own a Lastolite grey/white card. So if I set zebra 2 to 43% and shoot the grey side, the moment I see the zebras kick in as I increase exposure, that will be +1 stop over?

Alternatively if I set zebra 2 to 83% and shoot the white side, when the zebras appear that will be +2 stops over.

Is that correct?

 

[Liam Hall]

If exposing for grey:

Normal - 32%

Pushed 1 stop - 43%

Pushed 2 stops -55%

If exposing for white:

Normal - 59%

Pushed 1 stop - 71%

Pushed 2 stops - 83%

I own an FS7, not an FS5, so don't know if you can set your zebras below 60 (we've only recently been able to do that on the FS7), but certainly you can set the zebras for white. If you get white right, your mids will be correct if it is lit by the same source.

 

[Ivor C]

Thanks Liam. I've just checked zebras on my FS5 and they will go all the way down to zero. Something I'm not clear on is if you aren't using zebras in the field to determine your percentages of white or grey, what are you using instead?

 

[Doug Jensen]

You said "Zebra 2" but it could just as well be Zebra 1 since it is possible to make Zebra 1 and Zebra 2 anything you want. "Zebra 2" has absolutely no difference from "Zebra 1". Or am I wrong about that?

Yes, you are wrong about the zebras.
They function completely different from each other and Zebra 2 is the better one to use if you are trying to hit a specific target, such as 59%, 75% or whatever.

For S-LOG exposure, Sony says to put whites at 60%. But after a few years of shooting and grading S-LOG and RAW from my F55, FS5, and FS7, I can assure you that that target is too low. I recommend putting whites at 75% (70% if you want to be more conservative). That will always produce cleaner images than 60% and yet still allow plenty of headroom for highlights. I believe this is one of the few things that Alister has decided to agree with me on, so if we are now on the same page, that should mean something.

In my opinion, Gray is too hard to use as a target because it will put zebras all over your image. What a mess. You can use easily use whites to get the exact same exposure that you would get with gray and you can leave zebras on 100% of the time -- but you'll have a less cluttered viewfinder during shooting. Plus white targets are all around us so you don't have to keep whipping out a special card. I can set exposure with nearly 100% accuracy in half a second anytime there is some bright reflected white in the frame.

 

[Liam Hall]

Thanks Liam. I've just checked zebras on my FS5 and they will go all the way down to zero. Something I'm not clear on is if you aren't using zebras in the field to determine your percentages of white or grey, what are you using instead?

I do use zebras. I use them to set white, in conjunction with the WFM. But, I also have an Odyssey 7Q+ to confirm everything is A OK! The WFM on the FS7 is small, but is very useful for spotting clipping or noise in the shadows. It sounds complex, but in reality setting exposure takes a second, no more.

 

[Lenilenapi]

I usually use a LUT and set my exposure through that so I'm not used to setting exposure directly in SLOG, but am curious about your methods.

Does the EI setting affect where you set your zebras, and do you set it differently for Slog 3?

 

[Liam Hall]

No Cine EI doesn't affect where I put my zebras as I pretty much ignore Cine EI as I want to know exactly what I'm capturing. That's not to say I don't push the exposure, I do that all the time, but do so based on what I see on the WFM. In Slog3 I set zebras on 62%, to find where 90% white is hitting, then open up a stop if I need to. I flip the LUT on to help with focus, but that's all.

I worked with a BBC chap a few weeks ago who used Alister's preferred method for exposure using CineEI, it would have worked too if he'd set his VF up correctly - everything was underexposed. Doh...

I also did another two camera shoot last week and the VFs were very different on both cameras, that's why I like to see exactly what is being recorded. YMMV.

In Slog3 mid grey is 41% IRE and 90% white is 61% IRE.

 

[Ben Scott]

Thanks for the advice. Let me check if I've understood everything correctly. I own a Lastolite grey/white card. So if I set zebra 2 to 43% and shoot the grey side, the moment I see the zebras kick in as I increase exposure, that will be +1 stop over?

Alternatively if I set zebra 2 to 83% and shoot the white side, when the zebras appear that will be +2 stops over.

Is that correct?

One more bit of advice... Double check and make sure the grey of you card is 18% and not 12% like a lot of cards are.
Not that I use a grey card

 

[JPNola]

Yes, you are wrong about the zebras.
They function completely different from each other and Zebra 2 is the better one to use if you are trying to hit a specific target, such as 59%, 75% or whatever.

Okay. But if Zebra 1 and Zebra 2 are both set to the same level, how are they functioning differently?

Zebra 1 can be set to any level that Zebra 2 can be set, no? And vice-versa. I thought the only difference is how they are displayed in the VF. The direction of the diagonal line being the only difference.

In theory the cameras could have a Zebra 3, Zebra 4, etc. The only difference being how each one displays the IRE to which it is set, no?

__________


And how does reducing exposure to where a white card is at 70% instead of at 100% constitute over-exposing by two stops? ( you didn't answer that question and I am suspicious as to why you did not. :grin: )

 

[Liam Hall]

Okay. But if Zebra 1 and Zebra 2 are both set to the same level, how are they functioning differently?

Zebra 1 can be set to any level that Zebra 2 can be set, no? And vice-versa. I thought the only difference is how they are displayed in the VF. The direction of the diagonal line being the only difference.

Zebra 1 will show a range of IRE values dependent on the value you choose and the size of the aperture you select. Fine for finding mid-tone but easy to miss when adjusting exposure quickly. Zebra 2 is much more useful when using it to find highlights as it will show all IRE values beyond the one you set.

And how does reducing exposure to where a white card is at 70% instead of at 100% constitute over-exposing by two stops? ( you didn't answer that question and I am suspicious as to why you did not. :grin: )

You're not reducing exposure. The IRE values are for monitoring a log image in the VF, not a REC709 image. Slog3 will clip at 94% anyway, so setting a zebra of 100% would be futile. When you apply a technical LUT to your footage in post (or an mLUT on the FS7) to restore your footage to Rec709 your IRE values will appear as normal.

 

[Doug Jensen]

Okay. But if Zebra 1 and Zebra 2 are both set to the same level, how are they functioning differently?

Zebra 1 can be set to any level that Zebra 2 can be set, no? And vice-versa. I thought the only difference is how they are displayed in the VF. The direction of the diagonal line being the only difference.

In theory the cameras could have a Zebra 3, Zebra 4, etc. The only difference being how each one displays the IRE to which it is set, no?

__________

And how does reducing exposure to where a white card is at 70% instead of at 100% constitute over-exposing by two stops? ( you didn't answer that question and I am suspicious as to why you did not. :grin: )

Well, you're wrong on pretty much every statement that you have made in your post. And I don't really understand what you are implying with your "suspicious" comment. Do you think I am hiding something or not telling the truth about how i use zebras? Why would I do that? I am on record for explaining the differences between the two zebras, what targets to use for zebras, and the proper use of zebras in all of my camcorder training videos so there is nothing to hide or questions to evade here. But I do find it odd how you post statements about zebras as if they were facts and then expect other people to step in and refute what you have said. BTW, if you go back up and read what I wrote in post #11 you can see that I did explain how 70%-75% is overexposing by two stops.

For S-LOG exposure, Sony says to put whites at 60%. But after a few years of shooting and grading S-LOG and RAW from my F55, FS5, and FS7, I can assure you that that target is too low. I recommend putting whites at 75% (70% if you want to be more conservative).

 

[Grug]

Good lord... the complexities you guys go through for exposure just boggle my mind.

I'll make the suggestion one more time then leave this thread well alone - get a lightmeter. Zebras are just irritating (both visually, and as a means of setting exposure)

 

[Doug Jensen]

No way. Zebras are much easier to use and actually more accurate than dragging around a lightmeter and walking over to check the exposure at the subject. If you find zebras irritating, it is clear you're not using them right because you should barely be seeing them. Fortunately, we can all choose whatever technique we like best.