Easiest/cheapest way to get 4K on FS700

S

Sam Van Olmen

New member
Hi,

I've had my FS700 for a year now and I'm looking at all the different ways of shooting 4K with it. I'm not really interested in shooting RAW, but a 4K 10-bit file would be a nice upgrade.
All the info online is a little confusing, I know most people are using the 7Q but as for as I know you need a special license and special ssd's so it's hard to tell how much a working package would cost me. Is the license still necessary now that the 4K proress upgrade is out?

And then there is the Atomos Shogun. Is it able to output a 4k file from the FS700? And if so, what format?
To me the Shogun looks a lot more interesting because it uses standard ssd's.

Any input in this would be much appreciated!

Sam
 
the 7Q is 1.800$, you need at least 2 256GB SSDs 400$ each, battery plate & hood 200$ minimum plus 800$ FS700 RAW option. = 3.500 minimum. You have to consider that 4K ProRes is actually limited to 30p and it's not sure if CD will manage to get higer frame rates in 4K ProRes.

Nobody knows about Shogun right now.

If you dont want to shoot raw I would sell the FS700 and go for the FS7.
Honestly. You have a little loss in HFR (180 instead of 240) but much more options
With the FS700/7Q you are limited to sLog2 which is great but means always grading
With the FS7 you can shoot XAVC intra in 4K in every PP and also sLOG3.
The 7Q is a great monitor too but the FS7 is weather sealed and much more future proof

my 2cts
 
Thanks for the info on the 7Q. I didn't know about the prores being limited to 30p.
The FS7 looks very interesting indeed. The weather sealing and internal 4K would be nice upgrades but I've just bought a waterhousing for my FS700 so I want to use it for at least another year.

I guess I'll have to wait and see what the Shogun can do with the FS700.
 
Convergen Design employee here.


Odyssey7Q is currently on sale for $1795, regularly $2295.
Battery plate or cable is $75
SSDs are $395 for 256GB, 795 for 512GB, so about $1.50/GB.
You'll likely want a hood and some way to mount the thing, so figure a couple hundred more.
The FS RAW (FS7/FS700) license is $795 to own forever, updates are included in the price.

With this you can currently record:
- 4K RAW continuously at up to 60p
- 4K RAW short burst (440 frames) at up to 120p
- 2K RAW continuously at up to 240p
- 4K RAW to Ultra HD "4K2UHD" in ProRes 422(HQ) at up to 30p
- 4K RAW to HD "4K2HD" in ProRes 422(HQ) at up to 60p
- And playback of all of the above

We expect to soon add:
- 4K RAW to 4K video
- 4K & UHD ProRes at higher frame rate (possibly up to 60p)
- 2K RAW to 2K or HD ProRes, possibly up to 120p, perhaps even up to 240p
- custom 3D-LUTs, which can be baked into ProRes recordings

Regarding the Atomos Shogun:
- Atomos has stated that Shogun will not ship with FS700 RAW recording capability
- Atomos has never stated that Shogun will be able to convert RAW files to ProRes, a very processing intense task
- While not proprietary, recording 4K RAW files is so data taxing that it takes a high speed SSD to reliably keep up, which will generally cost at least $.75-$1/GB, so some savings but not a vast amount.

There are other aspects to compare, such as the quality of the Odyssey's OLED screen, the powerful exposure and focusing tools, Convergent Design's history and the fact that thousands of the Odyssey7Q monitor/recorders are at work in the field every day while the Shogun has not yet shipped.
 
Sam,

To record 4k off the FS 700 you are limited in options. You must use some off board recorder. Shogun is not shipping and if there is no FS raw record option you'll be out of luck until it is offered. Odyssey is likely the way to go at present for price and size considerations. Will you shoot 4k in the water housing ? Will you have space for the recorder and batteries required to run it?
 
I will receive the housing in a few days, so I haven't seen it yet but the 7Q/Shogun probably won't fit. Which is a shame, but I ordered the (custom) housing a while before I even considered upgrading to 4K.

The 7Q definitely looks the way to go for now but I'm bit afraid of the amount of data the 4K/2K RAW will give me. Especially in 240p.
 
Sam Van Olmen said:
I will receive the housing in a few days, so I haven't seen it yet but the 7Q/Shogun probably won't fit. Which is a shame, but I ordered the (custom) housing a while before I even considered upgrading to 4K.

The 7Q definitely looks the way to go for now but I'm bit afraid of the amount of data the 4K/2K RAW will give me. Especially in 240p.
Click to expand...

Sam, I shoot a lot of stuff in 240fps raw. For high end shoots I keep the DNG image sequences on cheap external drives or our RAID but for many other shoots, I don't even transfer them from the SSD's. Instead I drop them into Premiere Pro and export them to ProRes in 4K - straight from the SSD's to a HDD on my computer.
 
Sam Van Olmen said:
I will receive the housing in a few days, so I haven't seen it yet but the 7Q/Shogun probably won't fit. Which is a shame, but I ordered the (custom) housing a while before I even considered upgrading to 4K.

The 7Q definitely looks the way to go for now but I'm bit afraid of the amount of data the 4K/2K RAW will give me. Especially in 240p.
Click to expand...

Well I'll give you a happy does of reality! =)

Fact is cameras are cheaper than ever. And this is a great product for such a low price. Really, it is. The versatility is on par with my 3-iron (pun intended). So this is a better investment than a LOT of other things I've seen people but.

As for the data, well it is what it is. More resolution, frames per second, and better quality (IE less chroma subsampling and less compression) mean more data. There is and never will be a way around it. So you will just have to learn to work with it. The amount of data you have to deal with is only going to increase over time.

That said I completely agree about the 240fps RAW. I do wish it was less data to deal with and that it was ProRes. I REALLY do! For now, though, it is what it is. With the 7Q, though you can use the exposure and focusing tools to help you get the shot faster and with less takes. This I can promise you. Which means less time spent in camera and less DATA being used!

Overall a good investment!
 
I'm a little curious as to how Atomos plans to implement the FS RAW recording. In order to record above 30p in 4K RAW or 120p in 2K RAW, the Odyssey7Q requires the use of two SSDs as the data load is so heavy. And this is true even though our Odyssey SSDs have an incredible sustained read/write speed capacity (475mb/s write, 520mb/s read). The Shogun only holds a single SSD and even the most expensive ones will not be able to keep up with the required data rates to record 2K at 240p. I know they plan to introduce in the future a caddy to hold a pair of spinning hard drives to keep up, but that terrifies me. RED had to give up on on-camera spinning hard drives years ago, especially within a Raid enclosure. It's just asking for trouble.

Hey, just my opinion. Atomos has built a business on providing access via cheap disk memory.
 
I am curious too about the Shogun! maybe they are able to record compressed files?

Mitch, what does the future feature 4K RAW to 4K video mean?
 
Clermond said:
I am curious too about the Shogun! maybe they are able to record compressed files?

Mitch, what does the future feature 4K RAW to 4K video mean?
Click to expand...

Currently the only option is 4K Raw (4096x2160) to Pro Res UHD (3840x2160) - so 156 lines are chopped off the edges of the frame when converting to UHD Pro Res. I'm assuming 4K Raw to 4K video means Pro Res 4K (4096x2160) with no loss of lines - as CD have talked about doing this for a little while and it is assumed to be no biggie now they have the UHD crop conversion.
 
Colinelves said:
Currently the only option is 4K Raw (4096x2160) to Pro Res UHD (3840x2160) - so 156 lines are chopped off the edges of the frame when converting to UHD Pro Res. I'm assuming 4K Raw to 4K video means Pro Res 4K (4096x2160) with no loss of lines - as CD have talked about doing this for a little while and it is assumed to be no biggie now they have the UHD crop conversion.
Click to expand...
Correct on all counts.
 
Mitch Gross said:
I'm a little curious as to how Atomos plans to implement the FS RAW recording. In order to record above 30p in 4K RAW or 120p in 2K RAW, the Odyssey7Q requires the use of two SSDs as the data load is so heavy. And this is true even though our Odyssey SSDs have an incredible sustained read/write speed capacity (475mb/s write, 520mb/s read). The Shogun only holds a single SSD and even the most expensive ones will not be able to keep up with the required data rates to record 2K at 240p. I know they plan to introduce in the future a caddy to hold a pair of spinning hard drives to keep up, but that terrifies me. RED had to give up on on-camera spinning hard drives years ago, especially within a Raid enclosure. It's just asking for trouble.

Hey, just my opinion. Atomos has built a business on providing access via cheap disk memory.
Click to expand...

Maybe by using some sort of internal ram memory buffer ?
 
Mitch Gross said:
Regarding the Atomos Shogun:
- Atomos has stated that Shogun will not ship with FS700 RAW recording capability
- Atomos has never stated that Shogun will be able to convert RAW files to ProRes, a very processing intense task
- While not proprietary, recording 4K RAW files is so data taxing that it takes a high speed SSD to reliably keep up, which will generally cost at least $.75-$1/GB, so some savings but not a vast amount.

There are other aspects to compare, such as the quality of the Odyssey's OLED screen, the powerful exposure and focusing tools, Convergent Design's history and the fact that thousands of the Odyssey7Q monitor/recorders are at work in the field every day while the Shogun has not yet shipped.
Click to expand...

Atomos Shogun information - http://vimeo.com/112272965
 
Video 4K/UHD/2K/HD (Included FREE with Odyssey7Q)???

Video 4K/UHD/2K/HD (Included FREE with Odyssey7Q)???

Mitch Gross said:
Convergen Design employee here.


Odyssey7Q is currently on sale for $1795, regularly $2295.
Battery plate or cable is $75
SSDs are $395 for 256GB, 795 for 512GB, so about $1.50/GB.
You'll likely want a hood and some way to mount the thing, so figure a couple hundred more.
The FS RAW (FS7/FS700) license is $795 to own forever, updates are included in the price.

With this you can currently record:
- 4K RAW continuously at up to 60p
- 4K RAW short burst (440 frames) at up to 120p
- 2K RAW continuously at up to 240p
- 4K RAW to Ultra HD "4K2UHD" in ProRes 422(HQ) at up to 30p
- 4K RAW to HD "4K2HD" in ProRes 422(HQ) at up to 60p
- And playback of all of the above

We expect to soon add:
- 4K RAW to 4K video
- 4K & UHD ProRes at higher frame rate (possibly up to 60p)
- 2K RAW to 2K or HD ProRes, possibly up to 120p, perhaps even up to 240p
- custom 3D-LUTs, which can be baked into ProRes recordings

Regarding the Atomos Shogun:
- Atomos has stated that Shogun will not ship with FS700 RAW recording capability
- Atomos has never stated that Shogun will be able to convert RAW files to ProRes, a very processing intense task
- While not proprietary, recording 4K RAW files is so data taxing that it takes a high speed SSD to reliably keep up, which will generally cost at least $.75-$1/GB, so some savings but not a vast amount.

There are other aspects to compare, such as the quality of the Odyssey's OLED screen, the powerful exposure and focusing tools, Convergent Design's history and the fact that thousands of the Odyssey7Q monitor/recorders are at work in the field every day while the Shogun has not yet shipped.
Click to expand...

But Mitch... this is on your website:
Video 4K/UHD/2K/HD (Included FREE with Odyssey7Q)

[TABLE="class: table-hover, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 468"]Compressed:
4K/UHD (4096x2160, 3840x2160): Apple ProRes 422 (HQ), 4:2:2 YCC 10-bit, frame rates: 23.98p, 24p, 25p, 29.97p
2K/HD (2048x1080, 1920x1080): Apple ProRes 422 (HQ), 4:2:2 YCC 10-bit, frame rates: 23.98p, 24p, 25p, 29.97p, 50p, 59.94p, 60p, 50i, 60i
HD (1280x720): Apple ProRes 422 (HQ), 4:2:2 YCC 10-bit, frame rates: 50p, 60p

No but's, if's or disclaimers...

This is the main reason I purchased the 7Q, but today I found out (from your tech help dept) that this does NOT apply to the FS700 UNLESS you fork out the $800 for the RAW option!!!! Making it... well... not FREE.
You guys SERIOUSLY need a disclaimer stating this. I would've held off on purchase till next year (and maybe the shogun) had I known this "Included Free" 4K/UHD compressed ProRes option was not really "Included Free" for the FS700, only for the FS7 or 55 or whatever your tech guy told me. VERY disappointed :-([/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
If the camera outputs video in any of those formats then we can record it and there is no extra cost option needed. The FS700 does not do this. It only outputs anything other than HD in RAW form. What you are paying for on the FS RAW option is in part the ability for us to capture the RAW signal and turn it into a video form. Then the recording is done as it is on the other cameras.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top