Ease my mind regarading Sony, Please

B

Brian Petersen

Well-known member
I'm super excited about the HVX and have been ever since they announced it ages ago. I plan on getting one end of January or early February. But I keep thinking about NAB next year and how I would be buying my camera a couple months away from NAB. And my concern is this. I know people have said in this group that it would not happen, but please ease my mind some more.

I fear that Sony is going to come out with some answer to the HVX with Progressive Chips, true 24p, HDcam codec, etc., etc., etc. And I'll be sad I didn't wait just a touch longer. Could it happen? Ease my mind, please.

I know you should never wait and wait until the BEST thing comes out because there are always new products coming down the pipeline and all that. And I know that even if they announce something at NAB that may mean it's not available until late summer or something, which is too long to wait.

I've just always been a fan of Sony until I felt they really mistepped with the FX1. Interlaced chips, crappy CF24. the FX1 just seemed really geared for great looking video. crisp interlaced HD. Good for some stuff, but not for indie narratives which is what I was looking for. The HVX seems like the answer for me, but I was curious if Sony had plans on releasing the camera I wanted the FX1 to be.
 
Nobody knows, who is not under NDA. I'd be suprised if Sony does not at least announce a new cam between CES in Jan and NAB in April. They already have put a feature and price body slam on the HDX400.
 
If it makes you feel better then wait til NAB. However I don't think that Sony will introduce a product similar to the HVX with the HDCAM codec especially with the news about XDCAM HD, which is based off of the MPEG-2 GOP codec if I remember correctly. I might be wrong, though. The new XDCAM camera(s) will support 1080i and 720p, 1/2in CCD and 24fps at a price point of $25K w/o lens I believe.
 
Brian Petersen said:
I'm super excited about the HVX and have been ever since they announced it ages ago. I plan on getting one end of January or early February. But I keep thinking about NAB next year and how I would be buying my camera a couple months away from NAB. And my concern is this. I know people have said in this group that it would not happen, but please ease my mind some more.

I fear that Sony is going to come out with some answer to the HVX with Progressive Chips, true 24p, HDcam codec, etc., etc., etc. And I'll be sad I didn't wait just a touch longer. Could it happen? Ease my mind, please.

I know you should never wait and wait until the BEST thing comes out because there are always new products coming down the pipeline and all that. And I know that even if they announce something at NAB that may mean it's not available until late summer or something, which is too long to wait.

I've just always been a fan of Sony until I felt they really mistepped with the FX1. Interlaced chips, crappy CF24. the FX1 just seemed really geared for great looking video. crisp interlaced HD. Good for some stuff, but not for indie narratives which is what I was looking for. The HVX seems like the answer for me, but I was curious if Sony had plans on releasing the camera I wanted the FX1 to be.
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If Sony make answer on HVX (and Canon XL H1) it could be only reply with a cam that would have more crisp resolution, something to compete with HVX200 and XL H1 better resolution handling by firmware (algorythm issue...). All other things you do not need, almost everything can be done in post. If you would get a good enough 1080i you could make a pretty good 720p in post. Also very good quality 720p you can make right now from FX1 and it is competitive with other cameras in the same range. Also about 24P you can get in post together with confirming it to 24 FPS even easier with E model than with a pull down 60i/p cameras for US/Japan market. So everybody should be aware of these facts. Maybe Sony only preparing FX1/Z1 firmware update, not FX2 or Z2 models. And don't forget that Sony is only chip maker between all these camera vendors. Sony is making chips and others are buying from the different makers. Canon bought Sony's chip for XL H1. A small size of 1/3' cannot make picture better in a higher resolution especially in 1920x1080 pixels. Because of that almost everything about recording features in 1/3' camcorder (resolution, dynamic range, etc.) is in the software of the cam. That is a reason for HIDING of some hardware spec by Panasonic (native CCD size) or software patents in Canon's 24F. Some more "truth" numbers and specs would "ruin" a wonderful advertised image some of these cams. Also no HDCAM in a low budget HD from Sony for sure. And no 24 FPS from any low cost HD vendor in the next 10 years. If you desperately need it buy high end HD camcorder or camera head. HVX200 advantage to other cams is more option for variable frame rates. Buy it if you are in need. Each of these cameras is for specific shooting need or special segment of a low budget HD market. For some low cost features you pay more but for a basic budget HD you pay less. Choose now and you would not make mistake. Nothing revolutionary new is coming soon.
 
dkirlew said:
If it makes you feel better then wait til NAB. However I don't think that Sony will introduce a product similar to the HVX with the HDCAM codec especially with the news about XDCAM HD, which is based off of the MPEG-2 GOP codec if I remember correctly. I might be wrong, though. The new XDCAM camera(s) will support 1080i and 720p, 1/2in CCD and 24fps at a price point of $25K w/o lens I believe.
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It is for sure a 2/3" can't find the price link I saw yesterday at $20K don't know if that was with or without a lens. The HDX400 is 1080i only, No P anything.
 
I'm not sure what they have planned for their "HDV" product line or as a comparable product to compete with the HVX, but they recently announced a few updates.

There's an updated F900 coming called the F900/R. It features some minor enhancements to the camera itself and introduces its new environmentally friendly construction (like the new VariCam has).

There's also an update to the HDCAM-SR product lines that give the SRW-1 & F950 variable frame rate capabilities.


.
 
The question can probably be answered by looking at the response to the DVX100 was. There was no response. People wanted 24P, but they didn't deliver it in a low cost model. They still do not offer a competing product. They will not release a product to compete with the HVX for at least a couple years in my opinion. HDV is not a competing product because of the lack of 24P and HDV compression.
 
Besides you have to remember that Sony in no way answered to the DVX100. Am I wrong or is 24p still an option only in CineAlta cameras and the new DSR450?

EDIT: Yeah tak got there first :)
 
Sony is notorious for segmenting its products and protecting higher end gear (at least that's been my observation). The chances of a 6K camera coming from them with 1080P 24fps at NAB is probably slightly lower than your chances of dying in a car wreck while trying to attend. They would probably be fearful that such a unit would invade the XDCAM arena (or possibly even higher end).

Besides, Sony's never quite gotten how many people want 24P (even if the people never use it). Look at the PD170, DVX100 and XL2. Who didn't offer 24P?

I think in the 5-10K HD 24fsp world you're pretty much looking at the HVX, HD100 and XLH1.
 
I was already discussing that topic in another tread at

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=40603

but to repeat again

with HVX200 you get 24P that is 23.976 and it is different from 24 FPS or about 1 % slower. So that should be visible in theater projection which is using a film EXACT 24 FRAME PER SECOND speed. In digital projection you have more freedom for speed option but than you have an audience risk issue. There are many broadcast speeds and there is only one film speed. Also do not forget that Panasonic have AJ-FRC27 HD CinemaTM Frame Rate Converter U.S. List Price $21,000.00 that converts variable-frame rate footage from AJ-HDC27 VariCamTM Camera to 24fps. For VariCam only. But maybe you could use it for HVX200 because it record also in DVCPRO HD 720p. So you could rent it when you need.

More info about AJ-FRC27 HD CinemaTM Frame Rate Converter

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webap...pId=14587&modelNo=AJ-FRC27&surfModel=AJ-FRC27

HVX200 does not have 24 FPS only have 24P in its US/Japanese version, European version will get 25P.
 
SJUSER said:
with HVX200 you get 24P that is 23.976 and it is different from 24 FPS or about 1 % slower. So that should be visible in theater projection which is using a film EXACT 24 FRAME PER SECOND speed.
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It is actually 1/10 of 1 percent not 1 percent. And it is not a noticable difference at all, there is more variation in projector speed than that in any given theater.
 
evinsky said:
It is actually 1/10 of 1 percent not 1 percent. And it is not a noticable difference at all, there is more variation in projector speed than that in any given theater.
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If there would be no need for exact 24 FPS that all high end professional camears would not have it. There should be a big reason for that. Technically and aesthetically. About speed specs from high end HD cams check it at the following links below. Have a fun.

1. D20 ARRI
http://www.arri.de/prod/cam/d_20/d_20.htm
2. VIPER - THOMPSON Grass Valley
http://www.thomsongrassvalley.com/pr...cameras/viper/
3. CineAlta SONY
http://www.cinealta.com/index.html
4. Varicam PANASONIC
http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp...odel=AJ-HDC27F
5. GENESIS Panavision/Sony
http://www.panavision.com/product_de...id=338&node=c0
 
SJUSER said:
with HVX200 you get 24P that is 23.976 and it is different from 24 FPS or about 1 % slower. So that should be visible in theater projection which is using a film EXACT 24 FRAME PER SECOND speed.
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Oh man, this is just such a non-issue. Why is it being brought up so much? The majority of users here or otherwise can't possibly care about the difference between 23.976 and 24.
 
SJUSER said:
And no 24 FPS from any low cost HD vendor in the next 10 years.
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??? Basically every vendor except Sony is already offering 24fps, whether it's genuine (JVC & Panasonic) or very-well-simulated (Canon).
 
holyzoo said:
Oh man, this is just such a non-issue. Why is it being brought up so much? The majority of users here or otherwise can't possibly care about the difference between 23.976 and 24.
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Agreed completely.
 
holyzoo said:
Oh man, this is just such a non-issue. Why is it being brought up so much? The majority of users here or otherwise can't possibly care about the difference between 23.976 and 24.
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But film professionals care about 24 FPS. Have a short overview at the recent shooting of Peter Jackson's King Kong, about cameras they were using, 24 FPS and more only now and exclusive at

http://www.sanjinjukic.com/day62-480x270-mpeg4.mov

or at the upcoming KongisKing.net Production Diaries 2 set DVDs
 
Filmakers care about content, story and quality. Not 0.1% of 24 fps. But all the movies filmakers shoot get slowed to 23.98 when they add the 2:3 pulldown for thier dvds. They seem to be ok with that.
 
SJUSER said:
I was already discussing that topic in another tread at

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=40603

but to repeat again

with HVX200 you get 24P that is 23.976 and it is different from 24 FPS or about 1 % slower. So that should be visible in theater projection which is using a film EXACT 24 FRAME PER SECOND speed.
Click to expand...

I remember that thread, but I thought you were convinced like the rest of us that it is a non-issue.

And are you serious that you think the difference is "visible in theater projection"? If anyone could tell the difference I would think they'd be like Rainman counting frames mumbling "Not filmed in 24fps. Definately not 24fps. Must be 23.976. Definately must be 23.976. Filmed on video. Video like Wapner. Video like Judge Wapner."
 
Brian Petersen said:
If anyone could tell the difference I would think they'd be like Rainman counting frames mumbling "Not filmed in 24fps. Definately not 24fps. Must be 23.976. Definately must be 23.976. Filmed on video. Video like Wapner. Video like Judge Wapner."
Click to expand...

Hahahahaha. Oh man, okay now there is a good reason for this topic - comedic relief.
 
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