FS7: E-MOUNT CINE GLASS DEBATE (Veydra Vs. Zeiss CP.2 vs. Fujinon MK)

sleekmedia

sleekmedia

Well-known member
Title pretty much sums it up. I will be selling all my Zeiss and Canon stills glass to get one of the following cine zoom / prime lens combos. I have narrowed it down to these (3) manufacturers for native Sony E-mount platforms and feel that no one has really compared these systems "hand in hand" for cameras such as the FS5, FS7, A7Riii, etc.

1. Fujinon MK Zooms (18-55 / 50-135) - Slow at T2.9 which is a concern with low-light and getting shallow depth of field, which is easy to love with still lenses (i.e. F1.2/F1.4). Bokeh appears to be very good considering. Par-focal zooms and no focus breathing which is a HUGE step forward for cinematic productions. Resolves images VERY sharp which is important for 4K productions. Resolves semi-neutral colors and saturation and appears to render nice skin tones. Lightweight for size and build and the pair of two lenses in combination cover pretty much my entire typically required focal range for most productions. Macro switch for shooting close-ups for ads or intimate shots without having to change lenses. Made for S35 sensors so no change in FOV (true 18mm FOV at the wide end). Good price for what you get ($7300 / pair). Poor re-sale and no compatibility with alternative or camera systems (no interchangeable mount).

2. Zeiss CP.2 Combo - (15mm T2.9, 35mm T1.5 SS, & 50mm T2.1 Makro) - Seem to be a staple in the industry and are loved by everyone but I have not had a chance to use them personally. Faster for low-light and give you amazing bokeh (14 blade iris) and shallow DOF. Great colors and resolves skin tones on par with some of the best. Made for FF35 instead of S35 so there will be FOV adjustment on FS5/FS7. I believe they would produce about (15mm=22mm 35mm=42mm, & 50mm = 75mm) so I would be losing a "true wide" FOV and would possibly need to resort to alternative lens for some landscapes and or interiors. Unsure about Macro performance so also considering the CP.2 50mm T1.5 SS instead or getting the Tokina Cinema AT-X 100mm T2.9 Macro but am unsure how it would match with the CP's. I have seen mixed reviews on focus breathing with these lenses so not sure what to believe. I have seen evidence of shots online both with and without breathing on CP.2's so maybe it depends on your copy of the lens or may be due to whatever adapter someone may be using. Would prefer no focus breathing for a lens of this caliber and cost. Total cost for a three lens kit used would probably be around $7-10k which is PRICEY considering two of the lenses wouldn't even be that fast and at the same time you are losing out on all the advantages of a zoom like the Fuji MK. However, a huge advantage of the lenses are the interchangeable mount which is extremely appealing as you rent or invest in future camera platforms that may take PL or EF glass. Biggest concern with these lenses are their 4k resolution capability and how sharp they are on newer high resolution sensors. Most of the work I have seen produced on these lenses was shot on F5/F55 and I know these lenses were designed many years ago before 5k-8k sensors were a thing. Now I am not a "super pixel peeping resolution chart guy" but I have seen a recent article published on No Film School comparing MTF charts on the Veydra's and the CP.2's in which, quite frankly the CP.2 performs quite poorly in comparison. Again who knows what to believe.

https://nofilmschool.com/2018/03/veydra-zeiss-cp3s-lens-tests

Which leads me to my next competitor below....

3. Veydra Mini Primes - Entire Kit - (19mm T2.9, 25mm, 35mm, 50mm, 85mm - ALL T2.2) - These lenses are sweet. I can attest, as I already own the 25mm T2.2 and have zero complaints for their price point. They are extremely SMALL (super nice on FS5), made for S35 sensors, well built, not overly heavy for build quality, VERY sharp @ 4K resolution, decent bokeh, good smooth 200 degree focus throw and industry standard gears. They don't seem to breathe too bad from experience but definitely not as perfect as the Fuji MK series. I am really not impressed with T2.2 aperture as well as I have found that I wished they were a few stops faster at times in low-light situations which is another one of my hold ups with these lenses as well as with the Fuji Mk series zooms. If they were T1.8 or T1.5 without question I would invest in the entire kit but in my opinion the purpose of having prime lenses is to have them be FAST and if you are sacrificing speed you might as well have a zoom that gives you that additional ability as well as parfocality, less breathing, and accomplishes your entire focal length with just two lenses. Additional,y these lenses have poor resale value (although that is good for buying them used) and they can be converted to M4/3 mount to be used on the likes of Panasonic GH series of cameras. I really like these lenses and they are cheap and my 25mm has done me very well on many shoots but I just can't get excited about using them.


So that's that..... another name the one "mystical E-mount lens brand" that can do it all discussion.....

But on a serious note I do feel that these (3) setups are probably the best high end value price point lenses for Sony E-mount platforms so I think any feedback from owners or users of these lenses would be EXTREMELY VALUABLE for us individuals who are looking to invest in a long term lens solutions for our FS5 and or FS7.
 
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This topic could be discussed forever.... but... if you will need to use the lenses on both Fs7 & full frame sensors such as a7RIII - then the Fujinon & Veydra's will not fully comply as they cover s35 only. So that leaves you with the CP2's.
 
Please correct me if I am wrong in my thinking, but I believe I do understand the difference between Focal Length vs. Horizontal Angle of View (HOV) and the age old "crop factor" debate.

If you look on the Zeiss website at their CP.2 manual document below

https://www.zeiss.com/content/dam/c...raphy/brochure-zeiss-compact-prime-lenses.pdf

you can see for example that the HOV of say the "CP.2 15mm T2.9" is (100 degrees) on full frame sensors and that it is (79 degrees) on S35 sensors. So respectively what I was trying to say is that the HOV changes as the smaller sensor cuts out the sides (width) making the 15mm's HOV APPEAR more like the HOV that their 21mm lens would produce (81 degrees). This means that it is physically impossible to generate an HOV of greater than 79 degrees (21mm = 81 degrees on FF35) with any of the CP.2 lenses on a S35 sensor.

Correct me if I am wrong in my thinking.
 
Bern Caughey said:
Seems your getting confused by the equivalence nonsense as a Zeiss 15mm is substantially more wide angle then either the Fuji 18-55mm, & Veydra 19mm.

“A 50 is a 50 is a 50”.

https://thecinelens.com/2009/11/03/a-50-is-a-50-is-a-50/
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Yeah but the Zeiss 15mm is FF.. where as the others are s35.. so although it of course remains a 15mm it will crop 1.5 on a s35 sensor.. and the FOV will change to aprox 22.5mm.. so I believe the OP is correct ..?
 
optitek said:
Really?!
I start to think that some peeps here are in the wrong business... sorry I thought we were waaaayyy past this...
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Is it not right.. ?.. a FF lens will crop on a s35 sensor about 1.5 ..no.. ?.. the FOV will change.. the zeis at FF is 15mm.. but on a s35mm sensor with crop the FOV will be around 20mm .. thats the way I think of it.. its wrong ..? Im willing to be enlightened .. I just do the shooting Im not a technician .. any time I have put a FF lens on s35mm sensor camera it crops and the FOV is different from that of a FF sensor camera with the same lens.. I appreciate your concern but I can assure you Ive done pretty well out of this business .. :)
 
Enough of derailing by talking about crop factors!

A couple of ways to look at the lens question:

1 - Do you need zooms for what you shoot? I know I don't need a lot of actual zooming for my interviews and general b-roll, but I do need to be able to change focal length without cutting - so I went with the 'budget' options of Sigma 18-35 and 50-100. I think the Art series lenses look great, and wanted to have the f/1.8 DOF option for both... but I'm also ok with lens adapters, etc... Yes, the Fujinon MK zooms have a very nice look. If you get them I'm sure you'll be happy with the sharpness and clarity.

If you can do everything with primes, my experience is that they will almost always look better than zooms. But of course you need more of them. (If I were doing a dramatic show with just primes I'd be considering at least a basic 6 lenses). You mention liking shallow DOF - but remember, that also involves setting a specific light level (unless you're changing ND's/gain(iso)/shutter - all of which change the continuity of your look.) So if you set a light level appropriate for T/1.5, you want to make sure that all your lenses can open up to a T/1.5. If you get some slower primes and plan to be switching lenses, you may need to light for the slowest lens in your kit. Thus many of the matched lens sets have a consistent aperture speed across the set.

2 - If you're talking about CP-2 or CP-3 lenses you're also talking about a significant investment - and the lenses should far outlast the FS7 or FS5. So you also have to ask yourself -- does it make sense to get them in E-mount? or should they be PL and you can get a good PL adapter for the camera? After all, what will be the native lens mount of your next camera? Changing over all your lenses to a different mount is not a trivially inexpensive proposition.
 
optitek said:
Really?!
I start to think that some peeps here are in the wrong business... sorry I thought we were waaaayyy past this...
Click to expand...

+1
I thought so too.

To the OP: get the Fujinon MK zooms and be done with it. They are excellent lenses to work with and have a great "feel". They look way better than the CP lenses and are so much more convenient and versatile. I have no experience with the Veydra lenses, but by your own admission you can't get excited about the 25mm that you already own so why would you buy more of them? If you're going to use primes (as I primarily do) then they better be something you really like in order to make up for the hassle of using primes.
 
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It sounds like from your post that you are really into "super-speed" lenses. So I am going to throw a wrench in here and recommend the SLR Magic Microprimes.

They are said to start shipping at the end of May.

SLRM_MicroPrime_169.jpg


At $799 each the four lenses will cost around $3200. That's less than the cost of the CP.2 50mm Makro.

"I am really not impressed with T2.2 aperture as well as I have found that I wished they were a few stops faster at times in low-light situations"

At T1.5 or faster, the Micro's provide you the super-speed you like. An 18mm T2.9 is said to be released this Fall. Basically instead of the Veydras you'd being going with a slightly faster set of Veydras. Very similar characteristics as the Veydras in terms of weight & size, focus gearing, focus throw, breathing, etc. But they are lower priced than the Veydras. There is no way to build a "super-speed" ( faster than T2.2 ) set for as low a cost as the MicroPrimes. One rub is that there isn't much out there yet as to their durability and function. But we know that the SLR Magic APO's are well made.


EDIT- I just saw Doug's post and I agree that the MK's would be a good choice. I own the MK 18-55mm. HOWEVER, I do agree that there is something special about really fast glass and the DoF that can be achieved with it. And the low-light capability of super-speed glass is a consideration. A T2.9 lens won't get you that specialness that faster glass can get you. It won't ever be magical. It will more just be serviceable. Like a 2/3" ENG zoom. FYI- I've done around 20 jobs since I bought the MK 18-55mm roughly a month ago and I have yet to use it on any job. So make of that what you will as to how much I am or am not in love with it. So far there haven't been situations for which it is well-suited. I end up using my Sigma 18-35mm instead because at F/1.8 it has that "magic" that the MK doesn't have. Or I am doing interviews and I am on primes.
 
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OnSet said:
Enough of derailing by talking about crop factors!

A couple of ways to look at the lens question:

1 - Do you need zooms for what you shoot? I know I don't need a lot of actual zooming for my interviews and general b-roll, but I do need to be able to change focal length without cutting - so I went with the 'budget' options of Sigma 18-35 and 50-100. I think the Art series lenses look great, and wanted to have the f/1.8 DOF option for both... but I'm also ok with lens adapters, etc... Yes, the Fujinon MK zooms have a very nice look. If you get them I'm sure you'll be happy with the sharpness and clarity.

If you can do everything with primes, my experience is that they will almost always look better than zooms. But of course you need more of them. (If I were doing a dramatic show with just primes I'd be considering at least a basic 6 lenses). You mention liking shallow DOF - but remember, that also involves setting a specific light level (unless you're changing ND's/gain(iso)/shutter - all of which change the continuity of your look.) So if you set a light level appropriate for T/1.5, you want to make sure that all your lenses can open up to a T/1.5. If you get some slower primes and plan to be switching lenses, you may need to light for the slowest lens in your kit. Thus many of the matched lens sets have a consistent aperture speed across the set.

2 - If you're talking about CP-2 or CP-3 lenses you're also talking about a significant investment - and the lenses should far outlast the FS7 or FS5. So you also have to ask yourself -- does it make sense to get them in E-mount? or should they be PL and you can get a good PL adapter for the camera? After all, what will be the native lens mount of your next camera? Changing over all your lenses to a different mount is not a trivially inexpensive proposition.
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What are your thoughts on the Sigma zooms.. I have a CN7 but have been thinking of getting the Sigma zooms as a faster sort of Vari prime lens when I need faster than the CN7 .. and have a bit more time to shoot..

PS stil dont see wrong about FF having a crop factor on s35mm lens .. surely this has some bearing on the lens buying as there OP states himself.. ???
 
Shot with the FS7 & FS7 II with the MK set... using only available light and daylight through windows, graded to our taste and grain added. I see no issue with the MKs at all. Seriously, look at what you get for the price; zoom, parfocal, stepless aperture that can be close completely unlike stills lenses, and build-in macro.

Pass: dvxuser

 
Regarding lenses and "crop factors", FoV, etc:
A given focal length and a given sensor size are going to give you a given Field of View for that combination. Period. It doesn't matter if it's a "full frame" lens. The smaller the sensor, the smaller(more narrow) the Fov will be for any given focal length vs. the same focal length on a sensor that is larger. If you take a 50mm lens that is designed to cover a "full frame" sensor and a 50mm lens that is designed to cover a s35 sized sensor and put both lenses on a s35 camera, the FoV will be the same for each lens on that camer(sensor).
 
Sod crop factors. Let's have a proper grown-up discussion :-)

I've still yet to see a compelling A/B comparison between, say, the MKs and something like the 18-110 or other contenders out there. Plenty of "look at my shizz" reels that, subjectively, look nice - but nothing that objectively compares these different FS5/7 lens contenders, using the same shot, lighting etc etc.

Just like hifi - those gold-plated connectors are lauded by the marketeers, but invite them to sit down and objectively compare against cheap ubiquitous nickel, and they all suddenly run for the hills (at least they did when I wrote for What HiFi?)

It's been a bit dull round here on this forum, so that's my grenade to lob. I'll just go hide behind that wall...

Ben.
 
To me it is about much more than just the "look" of the lens. It is also about focusing performance and the overall feel and convenience of working with it. None of the Sony lenses can even come close to touching the MK lenses, if those considerations are of any importance to someone. It is my contention that any lens that has any AF ability at all, even if AF can be turned off, is basically going to be a lens that I will hate working with. What makes the MK lenses so great is that they have zero electronics, and the superb optical performance is just icing on the cake.
 
bengiles said:
...I've still yet to see a compelling A/B comparison between, say, the MKs and something like the 18-110 or other contenders out there. Plenty of "look at my shizz" reels that, subjectively, look nice - but nothing that objectively compares these different FS5/7 lens contenders, using the same shot, lighting etc etc.
Click to expand...

Indeed, I find the majority of lens comparisons ineffective. Perhaps one in five tells me something useful. The only real way to evaluate lenses is to get them in your hands. If you have it down to two or three lenses (or sets), rent them and only then will you really know what you are getting.
 
bengiles said:
Sod crop factors. Let's have a proper grown-up discussion :-)

I've still yet to see a compelling A/B comparison between, say, the MKs and something like the 18-110 or other contenders out there. Plenty of "look at my shizz" reels that, subjectively, look nice - but nothing that objectively compares these different FS5/7 lens contenders, using the same shot, lighting etc etc.

Just like hifi - those gold-plated connectors are lauded by the marketeers, but invite them to sit down and objectively compare against cheap ubiquitous nickel, and they all suddenly run for the hills (at least they did when I wrote for What HiFi?)

It's been a bit dull round here on this forum, so that's my grenade to lob. I'll just go hide behind that wall...

Ben.
Click to expand...

I have the MKs as well as the 18-110... serve differently. I used the mks on the furniture film because we had the time to play around and find our shots amongst the repeated actions of the carpenters.

But then I used the 28-135 on a simulated hunt / clay pidgeon event. The reason being that I could have AF if I needed.

The thing is that the 28-135 lens AF is dreadful, so I ended up pulling it manually. But manually the throw is shorter than on the MKs which made it easier to use when I had to go back and forth between people spread out over 30m.

But like Doug said; the mks are so pleasant to work with and zero breathing... really really smooth, and every shoot Ive used them its also been really useful to go into macro in a snap of a button.
I don't see myself right now choosing primes over these zooms.

Like you said, it gets drowned in look anyways so we are down to ease of use. And not having to change lenses and all the other stuff, just makes them an easy choice for me.

We started out with the metabones setup. I had that as well when I had the FS100. But man focusing with stills lenses was annoying.
 
Grown ups talk about Focal length/chip size combos in terms of angle of view in degrees, zeiss lists this nicely..
https://www.zeiss.com/camera-lenses/int/cinematography/products/compact-prime-cp3-lenses.html#data

As for CP vs Vedra vs MK - seems to me like each is fine glass each with a specific use, so until the OP presents and concept of thier intended use (or if they need the lens to cover thier A7 in FF mode) further discussion is pointless.

CP big heavy costly, focus throw can be too long for solo op - good for drama with a puller on your team
MK nice proper zooms at cost of Tstop - good for certain corporate
Vedra bargain low mass glass fully utilising optical simplicities of covering S35 on a small flange to focal depth

Obviously IMO the op should be considering a speedbooster and some canon Fd lenses and buying a light with the change.
Or considering Bens 18-110 if he runs and guns

--

A further note.. CPs are so sharp they cause the FS7 to aliase.
 
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I think a combination is ideal. I have the 18-55 MK zoom, and I also have the speed booster, canon 16-35- f2.8 and 70-200 f4. The reason being the ability to use the 16-35 and 70-200 on the a7sii. For those times when you just need a nice prime. The EF mount rokinon set was cheap to buy, and easy to just bring with. I've got 24,35,50,85 for now, and when I get jobs that are on c300 (rare, but it happens) I can carry over my wide-angle, primes, and telephoto if I really need to. My meat and potatoes lens the 18-55, stays with my fs7 most of the time though.
 
sleekmedia said:
1. Fujinon MK Zooms (18-55 / 50-135) - Slow at T2.9 which is a concern with low-light and getting shallow depth of field, which is easy to love with still lenses (i.e. F1.2/F1.4). Bokeh appears to be very good considering. Par-focal zooms and no focus breathing which is a HUGE step forward for cinematic productions. Resolves images VERY sharp which is important for 4K productions. Resolves semi-neutral colors and saturation and appears to render nice skin tones. Lightweight for size and build and the pair of two lenses in combination cover pretty much my entire typically required focal range for most productions. Macro switch for shooting close-ups for ads or intimate shots without having to change lenses. Made for S35 sensors so no change in FOV (true 18mm FOV at the wide end). Good price for what you get ($7300 / pair). Poor re-sale and no compatibility with alternative or camera systems (no interchangeable mount).
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False. You can use them not just on E mount but FZ, MFT, and X mount as well.

As for them being a bit slow, perhaps just grab say a Rokinon 24mm and Rokinon 50mm in Nikon F mount (for greatest adaptability) as an option in a pinch for when you really need lowlight fast speeds?
 
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