DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

shai

u may be right about the software point (and thanx for indicating it, I will also check mine), but I think whatever problems folks experienced related more to the efficient use of this not-so-simple cam, rather than any real 'faults', as such.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

hi,
sorry for the aestetic but it's usefull:
59102725.jpg

this is an example of an inducted strobing fenomenon (camera at 1 mt from the subject  - 500w at 2 mt from a white chair - 25p pal - 1/50 - overexposed -moderate paning right to left)
if you look at all the vertical and stight borders there is a "clone image"! and it's present in all the frame of the pan
Reading my manual: images are shot in the progressive mode at 25 frames per second. The 25 frames per second images are converted into 50 field interlace signals and the resulting video signals are output or recorded...
looking at this one it seems the contrary! ??? >:(
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Would it be possible for you to post the same scene at 1/60 and 1/120.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

That is most certainly not an interlace issue. Your complaints about whether Panasonic was misleading in its description of how progressive turns to interlace are incorrect, Panasonic is describing it accurately.

What you see there is most likely motion blur, as Aejaz was alluding to. Try it at 1/1000 and post a picture, it *should* be crystal-clear and razor sharp.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!


I tried 1/60 and 1/120 shutter speeds.
1/60 is still very flickering. 1/120 is flickering, too, but you can notice it less because the image is darker I think... :-X
Moreover, at 1/120 the image starts to get that action/war movie look just like Saving private Ryan or 28 Days Later...
I actually could use this look, but not fot the short I'm about to shoot.... :-/

Mauro and Aejaz, have you taken a look at my test at www.akindo.it/private/whatIsee_25p.mpg ?

Anyways, Mauro, can you please write to me privately, so we can talk in Italian and try to understand each other more directly? Thanks. My e-mail is: elvis_80@tin.it

Barry:

"That is most certainly not an interlace issue. Your complaints about whether Panasonic was misleading in its description of how progressive turns to interlace are incorrect, Panasonic is describing it accurately."

Can you please tell us why you think their description is instead accurate? Thanks!

"What you see there is most likely motion blur, as Aejaz was alluding to. Try it at 1/1000 and post a picture, it *should* be crystal-clear and razor sharp."

That would probably solve the problem, I don't know (I'll try it myself)....but would also totally change the look of the image towards a very, very accentuated version of the "Saving Private Ryan" first shots feeling I was referring to..... :'(

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

good photography is always a compromise between ''shutter sppeds and iris size''. I was able to completey remove ALL strobing at 1/120, without darkening it too much....or giving it a ''Saving Private Ryan'' look.

Citiris Parabis ( as they say in economics....i.e all other things remaining unchanged), i am sure you should also be able to do it.

Vaganway

I did see ur clip and frankly it looked quite normal to me. However I can see it even once more.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Aejaz:

as far as my video is concerned, I think unfortunately curved screen lines are a little distracting...I'll try to shoot a better test on a flat screen.

"good photography is always a compromise between ''shutter sppeds and iris size''. I was able to completey remove ALL strobing at 1/120, without darkening it too much....or giving it a ''Saving Private Ryan'' look."

Yes, I know you have to use more open iris and light when you set higher shutter speeds. Actually, I used a completely open iris to gain that shallow depth of focus we all like and some more light. But I'll have to do more tests with more on-set light, too. My feeling is, anyways, I'll start to better see the flicker again when I'll add more lights. :-/ I'll let you know.
As far as the Saving Private Ryan is concerned....can you give me an example of how to get rid of it? Thanks.

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

one point that may be of use

try to see the results of ur efforts (experimenting with the shutter and iris) on a pal tv rather than the computer monitor. I have noted that even higher shutter captures have some strobbing when watched on the monitor.

In order to be sure that it is not the reduced lighting that gives a smooth look at higher shutter speeds, you may do some tests of the daytime, exterior scenes with ample light.

As regards the darkening of the scenes, you would agree that 25P itself is a mode with relatively lower exposure. However to circumvent that problem you can try changing the gamma curve settings in the F5 mode.

Try to strike a balance for the night time or indoor shots, among these variables. For the outdoor secenes it really does not matter much, as I have seen it.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

[quote author=veganway link=board=Events;num=1077122851;start=125#125 date=02/29/04 at 12:19:50]

Can you please tell us why you think their description is instead accurate? Thanks!
[/quote]

Well, because they are. But it occurs to me that perhaps you don't know what an interlaced frame looks like, so perhaps you don't have a point of comparison. To see the difference, look at this page:
http://www.av-outlet.com/en-us/dept_209.html

In it, they show the comb-like effects of what an interlaced frame looks like, and then by comparison the clean imagery provided by progressive-scan. Take one look at an interlaced frame and compare it against what you're getting, and you'll see that it obviously is a progressive-scan frame, exactly as Panasonic describes.

That would probably solve the problem, I don't know (I'll try it myself)....but would also totally change the look of the image towards a very, very accentuated version of the "Saving Private Ryan" first shots feeling I was referring to.....  :'(
Click to expand...
Yeah, I wasn't suggesting that as a solution for your shooting, I was just saying to try it as an experiment. Use the extreme case as an example to isolate the perceived problem. If a frame with no motion blur shows up as crisp and clean with no "double image", then logic would dictate that what you're seeing is, in fact, motion blur. Which can, to some degree, be controlled using shutter speeds. Longer shutters = more motion blur, shorter shutters = less motion blur.

And, here in NTSC-land, we actually seem to prefer leaning towards the longer shutter speeds, because more blur = less strobe. Try shooting at 1/30th or so and see if you prefer the look.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

just to add my humble observation over this topic... i was also convinced that it's another case of understanding what progressive scan is all about (vs interlace video). however, there must be an explanation, why out of a sudden, so many PAL users pointing to the same "problem".

the monitored sound delay is another issue that seems unacceptable, especially if Panasonic never refer to it in their manuals.

my little bet is that there is a malfunctioning.

Cris, please keep us posted with the developments!!!
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Hi all,
Been away filming {interlaced} so just catching up on things.

I’ll refer to a test I did a while back as I had no feed back from it at the time. Just want to see if you unhappy pal users are seeing what I’m seeing. Why not give it a go in NTSC world


If you’ve got some spare time why not conduct a little test as follows:-
1 On a piece of white a4 landscape, draw a hand full of diagonal lines with a thinish black marker from left to right, top to bottom- \\\\\
2 Plug cam into your PAL monitor and set up your cam on tripod about 5 foot away from card and zoom in all the way, focus, colour balance etc.
3 In interlaced mode, very slowly pan back and forth from 1 end of the card to the other, the lines should remain clear with sharp edges.
4 Repeat step 3 in progressive mode. Do your lines look more like steps? Mine do.

From a progressive medium, we’d expect the lines to stutter slightly with a pan but surely there is no reason they should break up? This seems to occur on all horizontal & diagonal edges within the frame during a pan causing uncomfortable strobing and loss of fine detail.


Someone mentioned a possible software issue with the diagnostics menu.
This sounds interesting, lets compare set ups and software versions.

Heres mine

Diagnostic menu

BER DISPLAY – OFF
SAMPLE SPEED – SLOW
VERSION- V:1.02 C:1.08
A. OFF FF1F3F-3F7F7F-0A19
000000-000000-0000
000000-000000-0000
000000-000000-0000
000000-000000-0000
000000-000000-0000

Adjust Menu

ATF GAIN ----
LINEARITY ----
Y LEVEL 9E
C LEVEL 75
DEFECT COMP 0
DEBUG INF OFF
EEPROM VERSION 1.02

Haven’t got a clue what all that means?? Any thoughts?
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

regarding software version, i have the same like yours Brendan (v: 1.02 c:1.08 ) and have no problems..
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

on my DVX is all the same but:
Y level: 99
c level: 6C
and i've got problems of strobing
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

use a tripod. I bet it will go away.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

[quote author=shai link=board=Events;num=1077122851;start=100#119 date=02/29/04 at 05:39:56]something just crossed my mind last night..
when i bought my camera almost one year ago, i was told to check the software version (in the hidden diagnostic menu) and see that it's 1.8 or later.. if i remember right. the reason was that an older version of the software was buggy. the problem was that the camera rendered (or output or i dont know what) the fields in a wrong order.. which could result something similar to what you, "new PAL unhappy users" describe. i never saw an example of how it looks like, but who knows.. it probably happened before, might be happening again.
[/quote]

yes shai
completely right - this is what I checked first - cause the first production units were dead wrong and "Computervideo Germany" discovered that early.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

[quote author=Jarred Land link=board=Events;num=1077122851;start=125#134 date=03/01/04 at 15:51:19]use a tripod. I bet it will go away.[/quote]

nice one Pal - I use a Sachtler

what I forgot -

here DVX-100 AE bought 1/2004

version 1.06 C . 1.09
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=Events;num=1077122851;start=125#129 date=02/29/04 at 15:16:55]

And, here in NTSC-land, we actually seem to prefer leaning towards the longer shutter speeds, because more blur = less strobe.  Try shooting at 1/30th or so and see if you prefer the look.[/quote]

Hi Barry (second attempt -first post disapeared)

You for sure mean 1/25  - as we live in PAL countries(I share this with 75 % of the world population.

Some thoughts to the ongoeing PAL discussion and interlace -progressive.

In Europe  we have more and more 16:9 TVs (25 % Germany 30 % UK  9 % US ) and a lot of TVmovies are
shot on 35 mm film or HD 24/25 p cameras.
So if like me you own a 16 :9  progressive HDTV TV set you are used to normal behaviour of film or movies shot on 24/25p cameras - I simply have no problem with it . I mean there are strobes but as there is a 100 years tradition to disguise this "phenomena" as well you hardly see it.

I own a progressive DVD Player as well - its connected with a DVI interface to the progressive display - so no D/A conversion.
as your link discribed, the DVDplayer simply joins the two interlaced fields and so you can see movies, films in its progressive glory.
You will never go back to this FBAS, YC and even Component crap ,
if you are used to this kind of quality.
O.K.
What would be easier than to encode a DVD with footage of the DVX 100
PAL (yesss.. progressive flag set) and to look at it in a complete progressive line - like 35mm film, like 24/25 p footage shot on HD cameras. Same procedure as every Hollywood DVD made out there- with the same encoder (CinemaCraft Pro).
Good idea ... you bet... I did it

beautiful - really beautiful - almost HDTV - but it strobes much more than

even the worst 16 mm movies of the french cinema noir days.

And for all in gods own country--  don `t be angry   :-)


;)


Yesss - we have tripods here !!  we even have Dedo lights !

and just brought to you the ARRI LASER

Mine
;D
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

bad software versions??
what are the faulty versions??
on my dvx100e-nov 2003:
eeprom 1.02
version v:1.02 c 1.08
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

I think now we are reaching some better understandings on the strobbing issue. As I have noted in my earlier posts that I was able to control all strobing at 1/120, almost the same quality as mauro's image at 1/1000, and off course a lot brigheter image. Sorry I cannot post my results, at least for now. I also noted that while the movie shot at 1/120 looked silk smooth in the 32 inches wide screen SONY Multi system TV, some (just some) strobbing was visible when I transferred it to my computer through the firewire. I used Premier Pro 7.0 for that and also burnt a DVD RW. However, the same DVD seen on the TV shows no strobing. So, based on our discussion here in this forum so far, CAN we conclude that:  

1. The PAL version of the DVX100 family (both DVX100E and DVX100AE) are technically  'OK' cameras  ???

2. By making use of the various options (shutter speed, Iris, gamma settings etc), and by using the camera properly (tripods etc) we can 'effectively' control the strobbing  ???

3. the issues raised in this thread and the other one concerning the joint reperesentation to panasonic, are partly due to the fact that the 25P, for which this cam was a pioneer in the Mini DV category, has NOW reached at the crossroads of usage between various old and new technologies (of recording and display), and users (professinals and prosumers).  ???It sounds probable given the fact that all these ''problems or issues'' which are now being expereinced or at least being reported, did not come to the fore earlier.

These are off course not foregone conclusions. However I got these IMPRESSIONS from the discussion so far. I would very much like to see your views.
 
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