DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!


Hi again
I just read the past Brendan's threads.
I see there were other users that wrote and are not writing here, maybe because the subject of this thread is not specific. So I'll start another one right now.

I'll call it: "Unhappy 25p PAL users: let's write to Panasonic!"

I'm gonna report as many links to 25p threads as possible in this new thread. This way we'll be able to collect so many complaints, Panasonic will start thinking there really is something wrong.

Meanwhile....I'm calling again to PAL users to read my last posts where I'm asking questions about audio delay especially in 25p, too.

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Hi Vaganway

What I understand, the stobbing effect is an issue related to the PROGESSIVE mode in general, and not something particular to 25P (or 24P, and 30P for that matter.) At least this is what one gathers after reading the article indicated by PrestonH at  http://videosystems.com/ar/video_highrate_progressive/index.htm

I think video cameras are 'just cameras' and not  'HUMAN EYES', which are the PERFACT CAMERAS. You have to expect some (at least some) limitations in every technology, no matter how perfact. In this very particular issue this seems to be true all the more because

1. the Progressive/HD technologies are still evolving and

2. we are talking about getting perfact results, using still-evolving technlogies, and by intermixing them while assessing the results.

As for me, I do have a strobbing effect in 25P mode. This is not very pronounced either. On slow pans it is almost non existent. However, I believe in what IAL said at overcoming the effects by PROPERLY USING the camera  (instead of getting nervous about its percieved technological defect.)

But yes I agree an indiviudal's tolerance of  'A' particular issue (for instance I would not call it even a problem...the strobbing thing) can and should vary. However I think that a professional approach is to accept the limitations of any given situation (or equipment, or even onself) and OVERCOME them by adjusting to the situation. At least this is what I have learnt so far in my profession.

I also wonder why no other Professional ever pointed to this issue (which you are sure is a problem) in the past. After all AGDVX100 ( not the DVX100A) did not become one of the most favoured cameras of Profs overnight. I am sure many people took some remarkable results from the PAL version too.

Sorry for this longish 'opinion'. I have no intention of affecting urs or anyone else's opinion by this post. As I already said this is just what I really feel inside me. I know in ur posts so far u have also been doing just the same  :D

But off course I dont think there is a point in sending a joint representation to Panasonic....
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Okay, I just watched the "whatIsee" video.

What's the problem? It looks fine. Looks just like regular 24P/25P progressive strobing. You can't move the camera like that and expect it NOT to strobe.

Was there something else we were supposed to see in that?
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!


Mine, thanks for your comment on 2-Pops forum.

Aejaz:

>As for me, I do have a strobbing effect in 25P mode. This is >not very pronounced either. However, I believe in what IAL >said at overcoming the effects by PROPERLY USING the >camera (instead of getting nervous about its percieved >technological defect.)

I really have no more energies....you know. And I'll just quote Brendan again: I only want to be able to *move* my camera in 25p. Because the flickering/doubling lines issue is immediately noticeable when you move the camera...even in very slow pans.

Barry_Green:

>What's the problem? It looks fine. Looks just like regular >24P/25P progressive strobing. You can't move the camera >like that and expect it NOT to strobe.
>Was there something else we were supposed to see in >that?

Ok, I don't know what to say. I don't know what you see, anymore...sorry. I don't think I was moving the camera in strange way...of course that wasn't an artistic shot, just a test to let you see the problem. Boy, I was just *panning*, not fast, not slowly.

If the only way not to see the flickering/doubling lines (sorry I keep on using this term, I think "strobing" could be not so clear in this case, at least for people whose motherlanguage is not English) is to use a shallow depth of field, that's another thing.
I can't see any "film way" to use the camera to avoid the "issue". Should I have to avoid pans, you mean? Please. Is this supposed to be a "film way" to shoot? Pans exist!!! And they're not meant just to follow a character with an out of focus background because of the shallow d.o.f. Should I have to move slowly? I get the flicker, anyway. So, what's this "film way"?... >:(

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Man, I sure would like to be able to get to the bottom of this.

I don't currently have a PAL monitor, although I'm trying to get one. If I did, I would ask you to post a few seconds, maybe 10 seconds, of the footage that you find troubling. As I understand it, you're saying that the problem is only really noticeable on a PAL television, it doesn't exhibit problems when viewed on a computer, right?

Anybody out there (Shai, perhaps) with a fast internet connection, willing to download some footage and check it on a PAL monitor? If it's just simple 25P strobing, which is what this mpg looks like to me, then it's a non-issue. But if there's something more, it'd be nice to know.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!


Don't know. Actually, the footage viewed on a PC look better. I see no "doubling" lines. But some flicker is definitely still there.... :o

Maybe this has something to do with that 50hz issue mine was talking about? Don't have a clue... :(

Yes, I'll be glad to put an avi on my site to be viewed by someone with a PAL monitor.

Thanks

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Veganway:

When you talk about echo/delay DURING RECORDING, do you mean a delay relative to the live sound? If so, this is a problem in many recording situations, and the best answer is good isolating headphones... I recommend "Extreme Isolation" headphones (I forget who makes 'em).

Folks, if indeed the "A" is doing interesting buffering to improve synch of RECORDED material, I think it should be possible that delay relative to LIVE sound could result, making the "A" exhibit more of a delay effect than the "P"... if the headphone out is indeed late in the audio signal chain (which I wouldn't quite expect, though).... thoughts?
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

I think you're exactly right. But that should only really effect the 25P recording, and even then, only by a frame or two at the most, which shouldn't be overpowering, should it?
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Hard to say without knowing what's really going on inside... but the report here on DVXUser posted a while back showed, on the DVX100P, audio lag (to differing degrees) for all modes. You can definitely hear a delay of a single frame, though I'd call it more "fuzz" than echo.

Delays notwithstanding, you get interference between live and headphone sound that often makes headphone monitoring unproductive and/or unpleasant. So, for live recording of fairly loud performances, isolate! And be happy if you're lucky enough to have an "A" that where it matters - on the recorded signal - you're in sync.

Keep in mind, too, that if your mics are distant from the camera (as mine almost always are), your mic sound through the headphones may hit your ear before the live sound does, and you'll have the resulting effects.... and the "A" sync won't be right for your distant perspective either...
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Sorry if someones already mentioned this, but what about bleed from the headphones back into the mic? Or is that what the last post is refering to? Especially cheapo headphones.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!


Ullanta:

Thanks for your comment! :D

"When you talk about echo/delay DURING RECORDING, do you mean a delay relative to the live sound?"

Yes I do. I can hear the delay even if no tape is inserted....in standby mode, you know. Just when you turn on the camera and plug your headphones in without even starting to record.

"If so, this is a problem in many recording situations, and the best answer is good isolating headphones... I recommend "Extreme Isolation" headphones (I forget who makes 'em)."

I have Sennheiser Master HD 200. They're isolating headphones, but maybe there are better ones? I didn't know about this extreme isolation model. This could definitely solve my problem! Thanks! ;D

"Folks, if indeed the "A" is doing interesting buffering to improve synch of RECORDED material, I think it should be possible that delay relative to LIVE sound could result, making the "A" exhibit more of a delay effect than the "P"..."

So, if I understand, you think maybe this delay issue is related to a better buffering to improve synch? So I guess it shouldn't be there in 50i mode, right? ???

Anyways, recorded footage is fine. No delay.

"Hard to say without knowing what's really going on inside... but the report here on DVXUser posted a while back showed, on the DVX100P, audio lag (to differing degrees) for all modes. You can definitely hear a delay of a single frame, though I'd call it more "fuzz" than echo."

How good to read someone else actually hears the delay even in 50i mode....thanks..... :)
Yes, echo is not a perfect term.

"Delays notwithstanding, you get interference between live and headphone sound that often makes headphone monitoring unproductive and/or unpleasant."

Precisely. ::)

"So, for live recording of fairly loud performances, isolate!"

Well...yes, but the performances don't need to be fairly loud...if thre's just one person in front of the camera, talking normally, you'll already hear the delay... :-/

"And be happy if you're lucky enough to have an "A" that where it matters - on the recorded signal - you're in sync."

Yes. Happy for this. :D

"Keep in mind, too, that if your mics are distant from the camera (as mine almost always are), your mic sound through the headphones may hit your ear before the live sound does, and you'll have the resulting effects.... and the "A" sync won't be right for your distant perspective either..."

Sorry I'm lost here...(maybe my bad English...) What's the difference between having the mics distant or closer to the camera? What about the A sync, now? :o

Ned Flanders:

"Sorry if someones already mentioned this, but what about bleed from the headphones back into the mic? Or is that what the last post is refering to? Especially cheapo headphones."

Sorry I don't get the meaning of this one, either... :-[

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Hi guys,

If the isolation/delay issue is such a big deal, why wouldn't you run the sound through a mixer & monitor at the mixer?

Steve
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!


Hi Steve,

Unfortunately, I don't have the money to buy or rent a mixer, right now...but of course that would definitely solve the problem.
I actually have a small mixer, but it doesn't work with a battery, just AC electricity, so I cannot use it for outdoors.

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Thanks, pal... :) oh, no....better not to say "PAL" again after all the issues we are experiencing..... >:( :P
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Hi Vaganway

I wonder have you tried experimenting with various shutter speeds, concerning your problems related to strobbing. I am sure if you try a speed of 1/60 (or even 1/120 if you are still not satsified), you may very soooooooooon fall in LOVE with your PAL.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!


Hi!

Actually, this was next on my list, yes. I tried slower shutter speeds as suggested by some users, but made just a few fast tests with higher speeds. I'll have to go back to this option, even if I read someone wrote something technical about the fact shutter speed cannot affect the flickering/strobing issue...don't know! :-/

Thanks for the suggestion :)

I'll let you know.

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Yes Cris

I thínk tha main diff between this cam and prosumer models is that the auto adjustment controls in DVX100 are very BASIC....which in fact give the operator the desired control. So it is you who have to control the scene, the cam would not do it for you atutomatically.

Slightly higher shutter speeds are always recommended for shots with fast motions or fast pans. In fact I tried the same this afternoon and the results are VERY SATISFYING. By moving the shutter speed a notch or tow above the 'Auto setting' for Syncro Scan (of 1/50.4) gave me satisfactory cotrol, which I was looking for doing away whatever strobbing effects were visible in the 25P. THE JUDDER/STROBING SIMPLY VANISHED EVEN ON THE FASTEST PANS.

SO NOW YOU CAN MOVE YOUR PAL...AS MUCH AS U WANT ;)

I REALLY WANT TO SEE U A HAPPY MAN ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

something just crossed my mind last night..
when i bought my camera almost one year ago, i was told to check the software version (in the hidden diagnostic menu) and see that it's 1.8 or later.. if i remember right. the reason was that an older version of the software was buggy. the problem was that the camera rendered (or output or i dont know what) the fields in a wrong order.. which could result something similar to what you, "new PAL unhappy users" describe. i never saw an example of how it looks like, but who knows.. it probably happened before, might be happening again.
 
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