DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Rodger:

"Still haven't read this whole post but based on you last statement, I would say you need to get your camera in to be fixed. There is no way that you would not see a difference with OIS on and off."

I'll make some other tests, maybe I'm missing something... ???I'll let you know. I haven't focused on this problem, so far. Thanks for the advice. :)

"Also, as OIS is done before any processing of the image occurs, this could also somehow account for your excessive audio delay possibly."

Well, one thing I call tell you is that OIS on or off, delay is always there... :'(

"Regardless, I believe the best advise is to get it in and have the OIS checked specifically and your other concerns as well."

The camera has already been sent to Panasonic who said it's perfect................. :-/

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Cris,

Again sorry if I'm missing somethings here, but do you have anyway to compare 2 DVX100E side by side. Maybe a dealer would let you come in the store and quickly check out how the OIS functions between the 2. Also, I don't know about Panasonic and their testing routine, but as a former computer service company owner, many times we have overlooked in testing (both new and repairs) computers. It just happens sometimes. Especially if the tests are broad and not to a specific problem.

Gotta run. I'll look back later and see if I can read this post fully.

Good Luck!

-Rodger
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

im pretty sure that ois (OPTICAL image stabilization)is simply amotor driven optical lense that corrects the image shakiness through a gyroscopic like motion detection system, and really has nothing to do with the processing of the image or the sound..its a gyroscopical optical image correction, and requires no electronic proccessing involving the data stream recorded by the ccd ..if it was EIS (electronic image stabilization) it could possibly play a part somehow.
but ois does make a difference in terms of image stutter, let me try to explain here.. the ois gyro trys to keep the lense viewing the same place centered by detecting any camera movement, and adjusting an intenal lense to compensate for the movement, but if you move it somewhat quickly in the same direction far enough, it eventually has to change where its trying to hold the lense, so it stops trying to hold where it is, and quickly jumps over to hold on a new spot, which results in a jerky studder. if movements are made slow enough,the gyro doesnt think its a problem movement, or shake, and doesnt try to comensate by adjusting the ois lense. so it is possible you dont see a difference. i use ois alot when doing handheld, and as long as you smooth and slow, it wont studder at all, and when your holding still your pic is pretty rock solid. but you cant really pan around with it on, you have to mave more like a track dolly and not just pivot the camera in one spot to pan to a differnt angle, but change where the camera is by sliding it smoothly to a new spot and angle.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!


I made the camera shake right now in normal mode. With OIS on, then OIS off, and vice-versa. No difference...... ???

Nope, I haven't tried two DVX100AE side by side, yet...I'll check this...new...sigh...OIS thing with the technician. :'(

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

its not about shaking with ois on, its going to be smoother like that. its about continuing a semi fast motion in one given direction with ois on. like a pan. in the above post i already explained why its worse with ois on, cause ois trys to hold the lense still, but if you keep moving it obviously cant keep the lense pointed at the same spot once you turn it too far for it to do that. so it keeps holding it, and then eventually snaps to a new spot, and causes studder. it just keeps studdering if you keep panning.. it wont happen with a smooth dolly track type move, cause the camera builds inertia, and the ois dosnet know the camera is moving at all vs a pan causes centripital force which cause the gyro to sense movemnt, and attemt to compensate by shifting the lense optics by adjusting the OIS lense. think of it like this if you were holding onto a pole on a wall, and i clamped a chain to your legs , and hooked the chain up to a wiught and slowly lowered the wieght, you could sort of let yourslef stretch a bit ,and stay holding the same spot, but eventually you would have to let go, and would fall until you gabbed the pole again, and then soon enough the chain would make you stretch fall and grab again. while.. that analogy may stink, but the OIs trys to hold one spot, so you can see that if your merely shaking the cam. it can flex around and still hold the same spot, just like if i just took the chain and flaied it around, you might wiggle a bit on the pole, but you could hold the same spot. but if you give it a sensed movemnt in one constant direction, its will eventually have to give up holding that spot, and jump to a new spot. which causes a sudden jump in the motion, and it happens alot when panning, so it jumps alot.but again, if you move slow enough, or use a differnt type of motion. it may never sense the motion tobegin with so it never tries to hold on.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!


IAL: sorry, I'm a little lost....I'll read your posts better when I'm a little less upset (thinking there might be another problem just makes me wanna throw the camera out of the highest window... >:( )....

Could you give me an advice on what kind of shooting test should I try to see if the OIS really works?
Thanks.

BTW: again for you, unhappy PAL users. What do you think about the manual and PDF scheme that explains how fields are divided again to be ok on a PAL TV?
I put an image taken from the DVX100AE pdf here:

www.akindo.it/private/25p.gif

Is this fraud?


Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

i sure it works, but just record some footage of one object while holding still with the camera handheld without it on, and zoom way in on somthing..(youll be able to see small movements more when zoomed in) then do the same with ois on. im sure the ois version will be way steadier, and not so shakey. and its not another problem. it just means that you shouldnt be using ois if your going to be panning, or re aiming the camera in any semi fast way when its position is concrete. (like if your mounted on a tripod, and will be panning or tilting, turn ois off) OIS is more for removing the shake of handheld/tripod work when your trying to hold still on somthing. you dont want it on any other time. unless you movemnets are very slow and smooth. its not designed to smooth out rough motion of the camera when performing camera movement (like a steadycam). its designed to hold the camera optics steady when they are shaking a bit from your hand..or the wind when its on a crappy tripod. so again only turn it on if your image is shaking when your doing a still shot. that pretty much all its good for. if it botches your image up when its used when it shouldnt be its not somthing wrong wih the cam, it somthing wrong with the cam operator.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Excellent synopsis iamloser 8)...

I guess I should have elaborated a bit, but had do run my son to school. What I was referring to was that since there may be a problem with the OIS controls either not switching on or off (mechanical) or rather the command function within the processor not functioning properly (hardware/firmware). If the former is the case, obviously it would not contribute to the delay problem, but if the latter, it may be related as this could also indicate further problems with other functions that may be part of this same controller or support devices.

Complex issues are not often resolved in simplistic ways, but good troubleshooting techniques are all but universal and in this case especially I can see a possible relationship.

I love your analogy BTW. Clearly explains your correct description on the OIS as I would understand it.

-Rodger
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

you are so right about problem solving..
i used to work tech support for a large company, and of course people ask questions like "why doesnt my computer work?" like theres a simple answer in some prepackaged fortune cookie i can hand them. iman was that annoying .i was like "c'mon people what do you want me to say.. it's not that simple.. why dont you bring me a paperclip that doesnt work, and ill fix that for you in about 2 secs"
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

IAL!
Thanks for the tip.

I tried the zoom test...and finally got to see the OIS working!!! Thanks a lot.  ;D

Sorry I still can't see the use for the OIS beside a similar situation: a zoomed image with hand-held camera or on a crappy tripod with wind blowing.

"and its not another problem. it just means that you shouldnt be using ois if your going to be panning, or re aiming the camera in any semi fast way when its position is concrete."

No, I was not referring to its negative-effects...instead, to the fact I couldn't see it working. So I thought there could be something else wrong, this time with my unit, not with all DVX100(A)E.

So, you mean that if I pan or move fast with OIS on I'll get jumping images or similar? (if so, I haven't encountered this problem so far...) Could you give me an example of a test shot where I could see the negative OIS effects like you did for the zoom example to see the OIS correctly work?
Thanks!  :D

Also, I still can't see why Rodger was shocked to hear I'm not seeing any difference in progressive mode with OIS on or off......What difference should I notice in a normal shot beside the "zoom test"?

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

sorry to get off the subject for a moment, just thought I would chime in.  While reading some of the old posts by veganway, and watching the clip of the clip that you posted, the lines that you are seeing on your monitor is a phenomenon called tearing.  This can be especially prevelent with largely compressed files such as the ones posted by shai.  When compressing a file for the internet, usually, keyframes take a hit.  Meaning that anything that doesn't need to be refreshed on the screen, isn't and this saves a lot of space.  When a large chunk, or all of the screen needs to be refreshed completely is when you will notice tearing.  If you look at those short clips again, find a spot where you notice a couple of these lines going by.  When you see them, pause the clip.  Uses the arrow key to step backwards frame by frame.   You will notice that all of the frames are completely intact.  It is just taking too long for the computer to completely redraw the frame in that 25th of a second, so it actually is skipping a part of that frame and continuing on to the next, giving you that line that seems so prevelant.  It has nothing to do with dvx footage, and can be seen in most web based video files.  Now as to your other problems, sorry, can't help you there.  But I hope this helped a little. Now, go ahead and continue with your regularly scheduled debate. :)
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Hi scharky,
thanks for the message. Yes, I'm sure it has nothing to do with DVX100. Still, what do you think I could do to correctly see those clips on my PCs? Thanks.

PAL users, where have you gone?....Please take a look at my long message where I say I want to write to Panasonic and I'm looking for people to add signatures to the letter talking about the same problem we're experiencing. And, again, sorry if I quote myself:"BTW: again for you, unhappy PAL users. What do you think about the manual and PDF scheme that explains how fields are divided again to be ok on a PAL TV?
I put an image taken from the DVX100AE pdf here:
www.akindo.it/private/25p.gif
Is this fraud?"

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

I really did not want to burden this heavy topic any futher. The Sound issue already seems to have been settled more or less. While going through the previous posts on this thread, I have found IAL's expalanitons about double images on movement, as most teaching. I am reporducing some of his quotes, which really touch the technical base of the issue:


IAL

"you will get a similar strobing effect on the dvx1oo ntsc version if your panning /tilting the cam too fast, but the same thing would also happen with a film camera.  ive never had the issue with mine which is of course and ntsc version, but i handle it like a film camera. smooth and buttery.[/color] so im not about to hear of any sort of flicker or strobe issue with the ntsc version. that only happens when people dont know what they are doing.  

……..you will notice alot of flickering/strobing in many major studio film shots. really its more of an issue of whether or not your watching whats going on-vs  watching the technicalities of the shooting the whole time. every film i go t see now, i notice flicker in somne shots where the cam moves quickly. ………..

..  its definitely there if your looking for it, obviosly CG work wont exibit the same type of effect though, but ive noticed it in quite a few flicks as of late. its just one of those things that if your not looking for it, you dont see it.

but ois does make a difference in terms of image stutterlet me try to explain here..  the ois  gyro trys to keep the lense viewing the same place centered by detecting any camera movement, and adjusting an intenal lense to compensate for the movement, but if you move it somewhat quickly in the same direction far enough, it eventually has to change where its trying to hold the lense, so it stops trying to hold where it is, and quickly jumps over to hold on a new spot, which results in a jerky studder. if movements are made slow enough,the gyro doesnt think its a problem movement, or shake, and doesnt try to comensate by adjusting the ois lense. so it is possible you dont see a difference

it wont happen with a smooth dolly track type move, cause the camera builds inertia, and the ois dosnet know the camera is moving  at all vs a pan causes centripital force which cause the gyro to sense movemnt, and attemt to compensate by shifting the lense optics by adjusting the OIS lense.

OIS is more for removing the shake of handheld/tripod work when your trying to hold still on somthing. you dont want it on any other time……….. if it botches your image up when its used when it shouldnt be its not somthing wrong wih the cam, it somthing wrong with the cam operator."
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Aejaz:

the sound issue has not been settled, to me...Let's say the volume issue is, but I'm still waiting for someone to tell me whether they hear this audio delay at least in 25p. Ok, maybe some people just can't listen to it in 50i even if I can't tell how this can be possible, but 25p......it's so horrible there!!!  >:(
And again, it can't be my camera. I heard the same delay on a DVX100 myself. And other 4 people where present. They all heard it on both cameras, both 50i and 25p.

Anyways. Going back to 25p. I think OIS doesn't matter.
Turn it off, you'll get doubling/flickering lines when you move the camera. Turn it on, same thing. Period.  :'(

Will this issue ever been solved??

I still have to understand whether this is a normal 25p issue on every progressive camera since some people say it is, some other say it's just this camera's problem.

I still have to understand if other people see something wrong in my shot at www.akindo.it/private/whatIsee_25p.mpg just like I do, while Shai says there's nothing wrong, but then also writes that flicker is normal and you can avoid it by avoiding to pan on one axis only....

I still have to understand if other unhappy PAL users are with me and want to add their name in a letter to Panasonic as soon as possible because I'll surely write, anyways.

I still have to understand if I can keep my sanity any longer... >:(

Cris

PS: sorry if I may sound a bit rude, but this whole situation is really driving me out of my mind.... :'(
 
Thoughts

Thoughts

Hello
As I was the one who noticed these strange DVX 100 AE strobe issues even on a 30" HDTV ready progressive TFT Monitor ("see creative cow thread)
some considerations:

1. If you p.e. play back the 25 p footage with an YC or Scart or low band component connection attached to this display, that means you dont see it progressive , and the onboard deinterlacerchip - scaler simulates a normal PAL source its definitely here .. buzz - halos- all the glory other PAL users report.
2. If you look at the footage with the TFT monitor attached to a Computer (best way vs. DVI) in my case to a Mac you must be careful.
You watch 50 Hz PAL footage with a 60 Hz TFT refresh rate and this inherently causes a sort of judder and tearing. See Sharky above. Though you will see your
DVX 100 footage with its full potential. Kind of HDTV for the poor man.

3. To avoid this kind of tearing or judder effects you have few possibilities - with a PC you can use a programm called powerstrip to
exactly sync graphiccard and monitor . I am in contact with a German
graphiccardmanu. (Villagetronic) who thinks about releasing a PCI based
50 Hz card for a second monitor. Of course your display has to accept 50 Hz signals (most of the new 16:9 TFTs TV will). Nice opportunity in a NLE like FinalCUT that supports three monitor setups.
4. I tried an other way - I encoded a DVX 100 clip shot with the anamorphic adapter with the progressive flag set with a good encoding software (procoder) and played back the DVD with a DVD Player .
Monitor and Player vs. DVI (best way few D/A conversions) . The DVD player correctly switched to filmode ( same with every Hollywood DVD)
and you could see a 576 p 50 hz DVX 100 movie.
Progressive footage-progressive dvd - best connection DVI - progressive display.
But help me this strobing issue is still there - and in my eyes its not the normal 16 mm or 35 mm strobe you see in every movie shot on film.
Probably this drives you so crazy that you get way too sensitive to the problem so I will arrange some testclips next weeks to show them to
some not judderaffected friends.

But I think we should together contact Panasonic Broadcast Europe about this issue .

Regards from South Germany and sorry for my spelling
its way too long when I left school.

mine
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!


Thank you so much for your thoughts and support, mine. :D

So, by now, you're signature number two beside mine for the letter(e-mail) to Panasonic Broadcast Europe. Great. :)

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Hi Vegan,

I've already posted this problem in the thread initiated by Brendan before. I have DVX100 PAL version and facing the same problem as yours. I have some frame grabs and a video clip showing this interlace issue (http://others.galacnet.com/~djony). I think it's the time for us the PAL owners to write to Panasonic and hear their explanation. ???
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Great, djony.

So you're signature number 3 I guess...

All PAL users who want to write to Panasonic, please contact me. Here's my e-mail address: elvis_80@tin.it

I'll collect as many names as possible, and we'll decide all together the contents of our e-mail, ok?

Anyway, do the image in grab "during panning" and your video clip match what you see on tv? Or is it just how you see it once you've frame-grabbed/compressed to a video file? This looks like something different from what I see...no vertically doubling lines, but horizzontally.....! oh my... ??? :-X

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Hi Vegan,

thanks for your effort to organize all troubled DVX100 PAL users around the world. My grab has the same looks on my PC monitor. Normally I use Vegas for my NLE and send my clips to my TV through FireWire and for this case it looks flickering and strobing. Of course the interlace artifact will looks different on my PC because it's progressive than on my interlace TV.
 
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