DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

ok.. i made a test that should (even if in a bit retarded fashion) demonstrate the phenomenal of flickering in progressive scan, please excuse me for not managing anything more... scientific, but i tried to put the problem AND the fix in the same video sample:

http://homepage.mac.com/shailevy/barney.mov

does anything look not normal here? flickery? i guess not. but look at the background ONLY, it is flickering! but you dont look at the background-only normally, if Barney is in the foreground!

hope it helps...
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Thank you for your test Shai. Indeed, I see nothing to complain about in your test movie. Sure, the background isn't moving very smoothly, but this is the regular jerky film-like effect we are used to. Furthermore, the fact we tend to look at Barney makes the whole background stuttering a non-issue as far as I am concerned.

But I truly believe Brendan and Vegan do not refer to the same problem. I believe they both refer to some kind of strobing effect when they display 25p on a regular PAL 50i TV! They both claimed everything was OK (exactly like your barney shot I guess) as long as the display was progressive, such as a computer display, lcd/plasma TV, DLP projector, but when they output the signal to a regular TV set, then, they get all sort of flickering/strobing issues.

I have heard people (video-TV-movie professionals) on the french-speaking "repaire" DV forum complain about something very similar! Some TV-professionals reviewers out there even claimed that the Panasonic DVX100(A)E 25p mode is one of the biggest scam ever in the video history... because they compared that 25p progressive mode with other, higher-end, professional cameras (from Sony and Panasonic), and they said there is "simply no comparision, unlike true professional progressive cameras, the panasonic DVX100(A)E progressive mode is a marketing joke, period!" and "the only possible intended purpose of the DVX100E 25p mode is for film (35mm) blowup, because there is NO WAY you can display it properly on a regular PAL TV set (99.9% of the PAL TV sets)". Then, their own conclusion was to either choose the "more cost effective" high-end prosummer cams from Sony or Canon, or ("should you like the cine-gamma and want to pay big bucks for it") get the DVX but avoid the progressive mode at all cost, or, should you really want/need to blow your short up to 35mm, choose to rent-shoot in "rather inexpensive" 16mm film because the 16->35mm blowup will be significantly less expensive and much better in quality than having to purchase a DVX100AE and then blow a miniDV short-movie up in 35mm :'( This is what they said out there, and they provided many of their own lab's electronic measures to back their claims...  So I'm kind of confused... Big Time!

I really want to know the truth about this problem, because I do plan to burn some DVDs out of my shorts! I truly want to know if:
-That flickering/strobing problem exists at all on regular interlaced PAL TV sets (I don't trust those French guys too much :) ). Can you film your own TV set while displaying a 25p footage?
-If it exists, is there a workaround ? Like re-interlace the signal?
...before I spend more than ten thousand bucks on a couple of these PAL cams and accessories (as per my initial plans). As a workaround solution, I am also considering buying a couple of NTSC cams, but I don't like the idea of loosing 20% resolution in that process...
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

fuu.... dont know what to say...
if there is really a problem with the 100AE - good question, regarding the other bad talks about the DVX, i simply don't buy it. Panasonic slipped into a hole that sony left in their chain of evolution. Sony still rules the market and i somehow suspect that these talks are coming from that side of things... is the SDX900 also a joke? i doubt it.
anyway..... i wish we had an answer to this DVX100AE issue, after all i wanted to buy one... :P
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

What you said is true: I also suspect many TV professionals (esp. in France and Belgium) are kind of sold to Sony and keep talking bad about Panasonic. But please keep in mind there were also other users who kept complaining about the DVX100E (the original model, not the A) not being able to be displayed on a regular PAL TV set. So this sounds like an ongoing issue. Instead of suspecting the bad talking, can you simply confirm the fact that you, at least, can display 25p footage (taken from your DVX100E) on a regular PAL TV set?

I think we'd better try to find a workaround (re-interlace video signal, burn a DVD) solution rather than investigating possible Sony conspirations ;)
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

I am by no means an expert on the PAL format or the problems PAL users are experiencing right now but, for what it's worth, here's some information that may be of interest.

Stuart Blake Jones, in his book on color correction says this about the PAL format: "...Although the additional scanning lines mean that there is significantly better resolution, having 50 fields per second as opposed to NTSC's 60 fields per second tends to result in a slight image flicker..."

Could this fact be contributing to the problem?

Also, in this months issue of Video Systems, Steve Mullen address motion and strobing issues associated with progressive video: http://videosystems.com/ar/video_highrate_progressive/index.htm
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

:D Thanks Preston! Your book is right! As far as I am concerned, regular old fashion PAL TV is almost unwatchable because of that 50Hz flicker. If you want to know what I am talking about, just try 50Hz vertical freq refresh on your PC CRT monitor (if you still have a CRT), and you'll see what I am talking about. In fact, I am unfortunate ::) to have a very good/accurate pair of eyes and ears (I can hear higher frequencies than most people do: equal or above than 17khz...), so this doesn't help: I also hate to hear the high freq noise we get from the regular PAL CRT's horizontal frequency refresh (around 15khz, if I remember correctly).

However, most modern (less than 5 years old) PAL TV sets are doubling the vertical scan rate 100Hz which is quite OK, IMHO. Furthermore, everyone claimed everything was quite OK as long as the DVX100E didn't move at all. So, no, I don't think this is related to the problem we're talking about. But thanks anyway! You must be right on something: it has to be somehow related to the PAL system.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Hi all,
Are we ever going to get to the bottom of this?
I’m with Arkham on this issue. Can we please be sensible about this problem, those of you who praise the cams progressive mode are not necessarily panny sales men or share holders and likewise those who are experiencing problems with it aint Sony spies. Come on people, that’s just Bullshit, its obviously just working for some people {NTSC users it seems, } and not for others {us poor PAL people}.

“Although the additional scanning lines mean that there is significantly better resolution, having 50 fields per second as opposed to NTSC's 60 fields per second tends to result in a slight image flicker..."

I’m afraid there is nothing slight about this flicker, and as arkham pointed out a static shot looks fine so this definitely aint the issue. I’ve also viewed on a high quality 100Hz Pal screen and the strobing is still terrible. As for my earlier theory on ‘jitter frames’ where the A B fields are from different frames, I’ve looked at the fields individually which seem fine so out goes that premise. I also compared the 25P DV fields to some 16mm I transferred to the same miniDV tape. The fields look the same, they are at the same play back res {ie. 720 x 576 – 50i fps} but the 16mm looks as smooth as a silk worms fart where as the DV looks like the worm followed thorough, {****!}. What’s going on!?

So I’ll reiterate Arkhams request so we can gage if all pal users are having problems. “Instead of suspecting the bad talking, can you simply confirm the fact that you, at least, can display 25p footage (taken from your DVX100E) on a regular PAL TV set?”
If you can then please let us know cause I’m yet to hear from a Pal 25P DVX100 user who can. Even if this was achieved in post through some kind of field correction.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Hi guys,
sorry it took me time to answer.

Thanks for all of your posts. I'll go by order.

Brendan:

"This IS NOT to do with the nature of a progressive medium or the resolution as it is sometimes suggested <cut> THIS IS a pal interlaced field issue."

Technicians here told me it's a *normal* 25p problem!! ah ah ah!!! >:(
So I'll add: this is a *Panasonic DVX100* pal interlaced field issue.....

"Viewing on a progressive plasma or TFT eliminates the problem and perhaps viewing on a higher resolution interlaced monitor slightly eases the flicker {and I mean slightly}."

I tried a "normal" pal tv (50Hz I think), a 100Hz, and a small LCD TFT: I always see the same flicker/doubling lines issue!!!!!
I don't know why the problem is still there even on the TFT....But I also recall a post on some forum where a guy stated he could see the "doubling lines" even on a 30" TFT!!! ???

Arkham:

"Have you tried, for instance, to re-interlace in post?"

I personally didn't try....but well, you're right...it sounds like a contraddiction to shoot in progressive and be forced to go back to interlace mode!!! :-/

"Also, have you tried to burn a DVD out of your edited footage? I believe DVDs typically store progressive content anyway, and then they interlace that content before sending the video signal to the TV. Am I right?"

I haven't tried. And I don't know how a DVD behaves as far as progressive is concerned...Sorry.

Shai:

Thanks for your test. Unfortunately, I'm still experiencing problems with video footage on PC, so I cannot properly see your file. Anyways, I'll report your last personal message hoping you won't mind:

"you are right, even very slow pans have this flicker, i can offer only this: shooting with this flickering "problem" always in mind will make you camera work look like in real films. there are many creative ways to get away from it..
btw, sometimes, panning faster can make the flickering less noticeable// but check out my post, that's another way, just to follow something.
and what if you dont want to follow anything? just do it slowly and add a track movement to the pan (dolly, for example) rather than panning on one axis."

Thanks for your opinion....But...you see....This sounds totally out of mind to me!! Why on earth do I have to limit my shots...? I mean....panning is a normal shot!!! What if I just have to make a pan between two buildings, for instance? And I just don't want to use a dolly...I just want to pan on one axis, yes...? It's just unaccettable you must have someone to follow, or pan on more than one axis!!! Hey, this camera should be made for great things....why isn't it able to shoot *basic* images?

Preston, thanks for your comment...But I don't think the flickering that book talks about is the same we're seeing.... :-/

Arkham, again:

"Furthermore, everyone claimed everything was quite OK as long as the DVX100E didn't move at all."

Precisely. I made another test. I moved in front of the fixed camera set to 25p. No problems. I took a book and moved it to the camera horizontally, as I were panning. No problems. I started moving the camera.....Here were the lines, doubling my door's original ones....!!! :'(

Ok. At this point, I'm asking you PAL users three questions.

1) Sorry I'm repeating myself, but I still have this doubt about audio delay...Again: I have no problems on recorded material, but I do when I'm monitoring audio during recording or simply when the camera is in standby (with not even a tape inside). I have my headphones on, they're plugged to the camera's headphones output, ok, and well, I hear this delay: I can clearly hear that my or someone else's voice live comes before the sound I'm hearing through the headphones...And I noticed this same thing on a DVX100, not only on my AE. And two technicians at Panasonic heard the delay on other two cameras. Don't tell me we got to test 4 defective cameras.

This delay is present in 50i (and it seems like this is not only a PAL issue, because if you read my past message you'll find out someone from creativecow.com noticed the problem on his NTSC DVX100, in 60i), but it's much more present in 25p, where monitoring audio is impossible. I read this is "normal" in 25p, on many forums......But....
Now, Shai said he doesn't hear any delay. Not even in 25p.

So please, please. Can someone tell me if he hears this delay, at least in 25p?!

2) Have you seen my test at www.akindo.it/private/whatIsee_25p.mov ?
What do you think about it? Can you see those damn doubling lines? Shai left me speechless when he told me the footage looked normal to him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o

3) I want to write to Panasonic Europe. And send a copy of the message to Panasonic USA, too.
I want to tell them about the audio monitoring delay and about this 25p doubling lines issue.
Now, if it's not just me to write them, there are more chances to get a decent answer. We could write just one message, but signed by different unhappy PAL users.
Brendan, maybe you could write a decent message as English is your first language (my English is so good as you can see...).
We could start a PAL revolution, here! They have to give us answers. Please tell me who's with me in this action, I already wanted to write today, but I'll wait for your replies.

Finally, Shai, I'm asking you that old question again: how does your 25p works look on a Pal Tv?

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

dont know.. feel like were looping ourselves here.. this discussion is getting to nowhere, we should wait until someone will actually test the two NTSC and PAL cameras one next to each other and get to the bottom of it.  
i'm not here to defend Panasonic or to blame Sony or whatever. those quotes Arkham brought here just didn't seem to be serious (not blaming Arkham, just wonder where they're coming from)... so in case it's not clear, i, DVX100E user, never had these problems, which cancel this option: "having 50 fields per second as opposed to NTSC's 60 fields per second tends to result in a slight image flicker..."
we're obviously not talking about that here.

Cris... did YOU actually have a chance to compare a DVX100 with a DVX100A ?
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!


"dont know.. feel like were looping ourselves here.. this discussion is getting to nowhere, we should wait until someone will actually test the two NTSC and PAL cameras one next to each other and get to the bottom of it."

This is why I want to write to Panasonic!!!

"so in case it's not clear, i, DVX100E user, never had these problems"

So you do perfectly see your videos on a PAL TV?

"Cris... did YOU actually have a chance to compare a DVX100 with a DVX100A ?"

I only saw the DVX100 at Panasonic's. I heard the delay. And I saw the flicker/doubling on a PAL professional control monitor. All the other people that were there, technicians or not, noticed the same issues both on my camera AE and that DVX100..... :'(

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

hey cris.. didnt see your post when i posted my last one.
so, yes, again, 25p looks perfect on my PAL TV, as much as i have nothing to compare. what i see looks like what i understand as Progressive scan.

no delay in 25p or 50i (you hear it when camera is in standby?!?!?! this issue is a good enough reason to give your camera back! it doesnt matter if it was found on another 10 cameras, something was probably wrong with a whole manufacture line or something, things like that do happen)

your plan to send a letter to Panasonic is the best one i've heard so far, put as many people in it and hopefully find the truth!

goodluck!!!
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

one thing is quite clear to me... there MIGHT be a true flicker problem somewhere, but my bet is that 90% of our energy here is spent on the very often issue of people's difficulty to recognizing the behavior of Progressive scan vs Interlace video weather its a technician somewhere, a new dvx user, a jounalist etc..
waiting for the truth to be revealed  :)
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!


"so, yes, again, 25p looks perfect on my PAL TV, as much as i have nothing to compare. what i see looks like what i understand as Progressive scan."

??? :o

"(you hear it when camera is in standby!?!"

Sorry, I made a mistake while writing. I meant when the camera is turned on on camera mode, when you can see pictures and hear sound, even if you are not recording.

"your plan to send a letter to Panasonic is the best one i've heard so far, put as many people in it and hopefully find the truth!"

Yeeesss! ;D Thanks, Shai!

Waiting for other unhappy PAL users to write...

And BTW: Shai, you could rent your camera to us unhappy users if it works fine !! :P ;)

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

"I meant when the camera is turned on on camera mode, when you can see pictures and hear sound, even if you are not recording."
---> this is standby mode, you made no mistake, and i'm still shocked.

i will rent my camera, but the rate is getting higher as we speak, i realize that my camera is a rare well-working piece... or i have a rare eyes disease
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!


"---> this is standby mode, you made no mistake, and i'm still shocked."

Right....yes.....gee....I got confused...! :-[ Sorry!
Well. The delay is not connected to recording. In fact the kind of sound you hear when you have the camera in standby is the same as when you put a tape inside it. Right?...I mean, even if you personally don't hear this delay, you still get to hear the same audio for when the camera is in standby and when it's recording, right? Why are you so shocked?...

"i will rent my camera, but the rate is getting higher as we speak, i realize that my camera is a rare well-working piece..."

Precisely!!!!!!!! ;D...:)... :'(

"or i have a rare eyes disease"

Er...and maybe ears, too..... :P But hey, you do realize great video especially knowing you're quite blind and deaf!!! :P ;)

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

i could *maybe* understand an issue of delay in recording.. when the recorded sound is being played from the tape to a different head (like in analog 1/4 inch Nagra or even Betacam SP) and no, you usually cant monitor the recorded sound from the tape unless you play it back later.

one possibility though, is that in my case (no delay in sound) i simply hear the sound via a direct circuit, i.e unprocessed / analog, while in your case (advanced models:P ) you hear the actual digitized sound.. what is it good for? dono. maybe a more accurate monitoring, but sounds like a pain to work like that, so it doesn't seem to be reasonable.. anyway
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

..perhaps the audio delay was cuased by the audio out runnign throuh a system that requires processing. similar to if you took the ntsc dvx or pal dvx, and run them into your computer, the image and audio on the nle are delayed, so if i put the video out to a tv, and played the sound off the pc, the sound would lag behind. but if i ran the video and audioo right to the tv.. its pretty much dead on.. (even 2 frames off is only 1/12 of a sec in 24p mode, and thats pretty hard to notice unless your finicky ..it was moths before anyone niticed when the dvx came out)
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Hello everyone,

Haven't read through this entire thread yet, but something struck me as I was reading and have to ask a question. This question is based on something Vagneway said this statement he made a few posts back:
"Precisely. I made another test. I moved in front of the fixed camera set to 25p. No problems. I took a book and moved it to the camera horizontally, as I were panning. No problems. I started moving the camera.....Here were the lines, doubling my door's original ones....!!!"
Click to expand...

I don't understand how moving objects in front of the lens works and moving the camera across these same objects don't work... Unless somehow the OIS is still actively adjusting for camera movement. I'm presuming of course that everyone has the OIS off as we all know the panning issues with it on.

Anyone have an answer. Obviously this may already have been gone over, as I've said I haven't read all of this yet -- If so, please don't be upset with me, I'll read it ;D

BTW - Just got my DVX100AP maybe 2 weeks ago, so I am still learning this camera myself. I'm happy so far, even though I've found some faults, but to be sure most are with my abilities, not the cameras. Sorry you PAL people are having these problems.

-Rodger
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Shai/IAL:

"one possibility though, is that in my case (no delay in sound) i simply hear the sound via a direct circuit, i.e unprocessed / analog, while in your case (advanced models ) you hear the actual digitized sound.. what is it good for? dono. maybe a more accurate monitoring, but sounds like a pain to work like that, so it doesn't seem to be reasonable.. anyway"

Right, this is what they told me. The audio is processed. But believe me, I heard the delay clearly on the DVX100 I tried, too. Especially in 25p, where it is just unbearable.... >:(
How can a delayed monitoring be more accurate ? ??? It drives one mad. My friend sound engeneer told me: "if you don't have a mixer just set the right volumes to the louder word that will be pronounced in a dialogue, than put your headphones away and shoot: you just can't work with this delay!" (and he was *not* even referring to 25p delay which is much worse!) :-X

Marjamar:

"I don't understand how moving objects in front of the lens works and moving the camera across these same objects don't work... Unless somehow the OIS is still actively adjusting for camera movement. I'm presuming of course that everyone has the OIS off as we all know the panning issues with it on."

I made some test with OIS off, others with OIS on. *Nothing changes* to me... :'(

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

veganway,

Still haven't read this whole post but based on you last statement, I would say you need to get your camera in to be fixed.  There is no way that you would not see a difference with OIS on and off.  Also, as OIS is done before any processing of the image occurs, this could also somehow account for your excessive audio delay possibly.  

Regardless, I believe the best advise is to get it in and have the OIS checked specifically and your other concerns as well.

-Rodger
 
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