DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!


:'( :'(

I'm running 800x600 on this PC. The laptop was 1024x768. Seems like on 800x600 (or is it "normal" monitor vs LCD?...) I/we see the lines more clearly.

???
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Ok. I made an "on the fly" shot of my monitor while Quicktime was running Shai's trailer. So, this is "what I see". A shot of my monitor with that trailer playing.

I uploaded a short mpg (about 2Mb) at:

http://www.akindo.it/private/whatIsee.mpg

Please take a look at it and tell me what you think. If you don't see anything here, too...well...I'll start to worry about my sanity and that of other two people now who've seen the lines... :-/
Sorry the goes a bit out of focus at a certain point (I'm veeery tired...  :( )...but I still can see those lines I told you about...The second part of the clip (I put 2 different scenes together) is shot with more zoom, but this does not effect the problem: the lines are there, just like when you see the shot from a normal distance.

Hoping you won't have compatibility problems with my clip as it seems like the Pharaoh's curse is on me........ :'(

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Dude, that just looks like your computer playback is too slow to keep up. That has nothing to do with the DVX or with PAL or interlaced frames, etc.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!


Well...It's a Pentium III, 800Mhz, 256Mb RAM. Not so slow to read a simple .mov!!! Also, the laptop is a Pentium 4, 1,2Gb, 512Mb RAM....And I've just tested the video on one of my editing suites, which is a Pentium 4, 2,40Ghz, 1Gb RAM.....
Believe me: ***just the same damn lines***!!!!!!!!!!! :-X

What configuration do you have???

Anyways, I started talking about this "lines" issue because I noticed them both in Premiere 6.5 and Vegas 4 preview monitors. I don't know if the fact I see them in Shai's trailer is due to the same "problem"...Maybe it's something totally different. But then again it's very strange I'm seeing these lines on three different configurations.... :o Maybe it's really a curse. :'(

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!


Ok. My father and my sister tried played the trailer at work.
They both have Win98 Pentium III systems. But: my father sees no lines. My sister does. Both have instelled and run Quicktime 6.5. Just like I did. I tried my other editing suite: lines are there. The *4* PCs I've tried have Windows XP Professional Edition.
Obviously, this is some configuration problem. **Don't know what to do, anyways.** I would have said it's WinXP when my father told me he's got Win98 and sees the video with no lines...But then my sister tells me she sees those lines (and I hadn't even told her about them....I just told her to watch the video and tell me if she noticed anything strange)...

Once again, speechless. :-X

Even if I can't understand what the problem is, I have to figure out the major problem regarding video on PC: lines in the preview monitor of Premiere and Vegas.
I have to check if there are any new drivers for my editing boards...Who knows.

In the meantime, I'll try to record another "what I see", this time regarding 25p directly from the TV and/or camera LCD. So you'll be able to tell me if that's the "normal" 25p (and/or 30p) look, or it's my camera or whatever....

Crazy Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

..you need to be sure that your pc is de-interlacing. not all video cards automatically deinterlace vide, cause a pc monitro is a progressive display, and isnt nromally used for ntsc or pal stuff. in the driver setup for your video card, there may be a interlacing setup button to tell the comuter to always deinterlace, or to "deinterlace desktop playback" if not, then it may be able to be done through the software program your using to view the files. otherwise your screwed, but know that its only you and your equipment that are having the issue, and theres nothing wrong with the actuall video.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!


Thanks. I'll check the "always deinterlace" option out and let you know. Yes, I'm sure it's not the file to have problems...only it's awful I've got the same problem on four different PCs+my sister's one....Maybe it's that option's fault.

Also, as far as lines in Premiere/Vegas monitor preview are concearned, I noticed I can't see any lines on my Matrox RTX.100 suite (even if I get jerky contours), while I can see them on my Canopus suite. Well. As far as the final video looks ok on tv...who cares....(even if it bugs me not understanding what this is all about...but I'll check that deinterlace option)?!

In the meantime, I've recorded a shot in 25p, thick mode (F5) then put it in my Canopus editing suite. While reading from the timeline to my small tv screen, I recorded the result with the Panasonic (normal 25fps mode).
I'm sorry you'll see some lines due to the "curved screen". But please notice they're there even when the video is paused, so *that's not the problem* (and by the way, they came out on PC, I can't see them on TV or on Panasonic's LCD).

Please focus on the video running on the TV screen, instead.
I hope this is clear enough to let you see that flickering lines issue.

http://www.akindo.it/private/whatIsee_25p.mpg (about 3Mb)

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

hey cris,
was a good idea to show us once and for all.. (and was... funny to see this trailer shot from another pc... hehe) anyway, looks to me like it has nothing to do with interlacing. something is wrong with your video card in conjunction with the monitor.
as an answer to your question to me about monitoring sound. it just looks very normal to me.. sorry.. the built-in mic is not very sensitive by it's nature + the output is notoriously low, but high enough.. i actually work now with a pair of the trashiest head set.. those flat plastic light-weight, and it's just fine. or maybe i'm just used to it.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!


Shai:

"was a good idea to show us once and for all.. (and was... funny to see this trailer shot from another pc... hehe) anyway, looks to me like it has nothing to do with interlacing. something is wrong with your video card in conjunction with the monitor."

Yes, well... :( It's just strange 5 different configurations with different video cards have this problem...It's the curse!!! It's taking my sister, too!!! :P :'(
I haven't found that "deinterlace" option on any of my three video cards, anyways... :-/ I don't know how to fix this problem.

"as an answer to your question to me about monitoring sound. it just looks very normal to me.. sorry.. the built-in mic is not very sensitive by it's nature + the output is notoriously low, but high enough.. i actually work now with a pair of the trashiest head set.. those flat plastic light-weight, and it's just fine."

Uhm. That's odd. ??? Really, I heard this delay in 25fps on both my AE and DVX100 that was at Panasonic's. Also, another technician tried other two cameras today and noticed the same problem... :o As far as the onboard mic is concerned...ok. Now I know it's ok...I mean, it is really *not* sensitive. Same thing for the Panasonic directional mic (I never remember its name...MC100??) If you have to them, raise the volume channels. Ok.
I tried a Sennheiser MC66. At mid levels the volume was already perfect.
No complains about the output volume. Just the delay...
Someone from the Creativecow forum replied to my last message about this issue:

Name: Preston
Date: Feb 20, 2004 at 2:03 am
Subject: Re: audio monitor delay

Yes, I've noticed a tiny, tiny delay in 60i mode on the 100A but it's barely noticeable compared to the progressive modes. Delay in the progressive modes is considered normal. The delay in interlaced mode is not enough to be a problem - at least for me.


Shai, is there a post where you talk about your videos somewhere? Your file scene settings and tips? Thanks.
You did an amazing job! :D

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

doesnt look like an interlace issue. looks the same as a lower frame rate, or fast shutter speed. either of these things would give the same result as whatever is causing it to appear this way. not sure what it is yet though..
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!


IAL:

"doesnt look like an interlace issue. looks the same as a lower frame rate, or fast shutter speed. either of these things would give the same result as whatever is causing it to appear this way. not sure what it is yet though.."

Precisely. This is how I first explained the problem to technicians. "Looks almost like a fast shutter speed was selected", I said. But then again, it's hard to explain...it's not *precisely* as though a fast shutter speed was selected. Right, it's more like a lower frame rate issue...When you set a fast shutter speed, you get a particular "look" (like in the movie "28 Days Later" for instance). But this look doesn't make you think there's something wrong in the shots.

What do you think would be the difference between a problem caused by interlacing and this "lower speed rate" look?

So, is this kind of problem totally new to you?
Never seen on 30p mode?

This is surely just the same thing I saw on the DVX100, too. Not only on my AE as I said. This is the same thing the technicians saw on other 2 DVX100....

I took a look at those shots on the PC. They look much better, even if I think there's still something "strange" you can't precisely tell. But those awful "doubling lines"/that "flicker" have gone.

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

you will get a similar strobing effect on the dvx1oo ntsc version if your panning /tilting the cam too fast, but the same thing would also happen with a film camera. ive never had the issue with mine which is of course and ntsc version, but i handle it like a film camera. smooth and buttery. so im not about to hear of any sort of flicker or strobe issue with the ntsc version. that only happens when people dont know what they are doing. really its only pal users that seem to have the issue even under seemingly good conditions, but again i would point to projects such as shai's and ask whats is different between his camera and yours. answer. i dont know. i cant test a pal version , so i cant help in that area. my only advice is to practise smooth and slow movements and motions, and that will improove it some, but you would have to ask a pal cam user how they were successful to really get som e good info. sorry im not more help.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

IAL:

Thanks anyways! Of course you can't try a PAL cam. No prob!  ;)

Just a couple of things:
do you think my "on the fly" pans were too fast?...  ???
and...
I have never dealt with a film camera, but I was just thinking...not all the shots/pans we see at the cinema are slow!!! What am I missing?...  :o

Of course I'm waiting an opinion from some kind PAL user like Shai! Thanks.  :)

Cris
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

true the shots are not always slow, but if your looking for it, you will notice alot of flickering/strobing in many major studio film shots. really its more of an issue of whether or not your watching whats going on-vs watching the technicalities of the shooting the whole time. every film i go t see now, i notice flicker in somne shots where the cam moves quickly. but about your pans. no,i probably wouldnt be moving that quick. but i have in the past, and my footage looks fine. again its more a pal thing, combined with how your handling the cam. as mentioned in an earlier discussion, one of the things about films is that generally when the cam moves quickly. it follows a subject smoothly . sopeople are not looking at the edges of things flickering by, but they are watching the subject glide about in the frame.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Of course that was just a shot to let you see the problem.  ;)

Thanks for your answer about movies. Even if it sounds strange to me (this doesn't mean I don't trust you!!!) I'll keep an eye for that strobing/flickering issue next time!  ;D

Cris

PS: the same problem is noticeable even in slower pans, anyways... :'(
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

..:) its definitely there if your looking for it, obviosly CG work wont exibit the same type of effect though, but ive noticed it in quite a few flicks as of late. its just one of those things that if your not looking for it, you dont see it.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

Hi Cris,
I’m a PAL user based in the UK. As for your sound issues I really cant comment cause I rarely use the onboard mike.
But the flicker!! Ahhhh the flicker!!! I’ve posted on this 25P issue before and still haven’t had much joy! All I can say is that I am experiencing the same problems as you, as are many other PAL users. Ie. 25p footage where cam movement {even really really really slow pans} cause fine detail buzz, strobing {particularly in the highlights}, and object edges within the frame are unclear so the image looks ghosted. {All this when viewed on a Pal interlaced monitor but Looks fine on my NLE progressive monitor.} all the suggested solutions seem to have no affect on the flicker ie. Turning the detail down and having V. detail set to thick etc.

This IS NOT to do with the nature of a progressive medium or the resolution as it is sometimes suggested {previous 16mm and Sony HD cam footage I’ve shot is fine for pal viewing & both are progressive and higher resolution formats}.
THIS IS a pal interlaced field issue. Viewing on a progressive plasma or TFT eliminates the problem and perhaps viewing on a higher resolution interlaced monitor slightly eases the flicker {and I mean slightly}. But this needs to work on an average PAL display {as nearly all DVD & videos releases of HD, 16mm & 35mm 24P origin do} because, lets face it, this is how nearly all of work conducted for clients will be viewed. I’m still non the wiser with this issue and have spent too much time {where I should be actually working} trying to get to the bottom of this problem and anyways, surely that’s panny’s job and not mine. My advice is use interlaced for anything with motion until we can sort out this issue, sorry I cant be more optimistic, and please keep us unhappy pal users up 2 date with this issue.
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

I am currently considering purchasing a DVX100AE for shooting a bunch of short-movies. So, this flickering issue (due to a flaw in the PAL specifications I understand) is bugging me a lot, even though I personally only own progressive displays (DLP projector, computer screens). :-[

However, I believe there should be some workarounds. Have you tried, for instance, to re-interlace in post? Of course, this could sound like a stupid idea (why should we shoot in progressive if we want to interlace the end-result) but at least, this would offer the option of keeping the progr. footage for a possible future usage (or blowup)? Does this work as a cheap way to eliminate those flickers?

Also, have you tried to burn a DVD out of your edited footage? I believe DVDs typically store progressive content anyway, and then they interlace that content before sending the video signal to the TV. Am I right?
 
Re: DVX100AE flaws/problems (same as in DVX100)!

so... Cris and i were changing emails for the last 24 hours, checking things closely, so just for the forum's records, i have a PAL camera with no delay issues, not in 50i, not in 25P and not at all.
the pan-test that Cris posted look normal to me, i will shortly post an equivalent to compare.
 
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